Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Baball
    • By Baball 21st Aug 18, 9:32 PM
    • 9Posts
    • 6Thanks
    Baball
    ParkingEye
    • #1
    • 21st Aug 18, 9:32 PM
    ParkingEye 21st Aug 18 at 9:32 PM
    Hi all,

    I have received a PCN as my car was recorded driving into a car park and leaving less than 15 minutes later. No parking was paid for as the occupants decided not to visit the attraction. It took some time to park, discuss what to do, plan their next destination, get their young child back into the car and depart again.

    1) Given the circumstances, do you recommend I appeal?
    2) If yes, should I bother to embellish the initial appeal to PE with the specific circumstances? Another forum user had their ticket cancelled at that stage with very similar circumstances.
    3) Two vehicles were travelling together so both keepers have received PCNs - can the same appeal content safely be used for both appeals as the circumstances were identical?

    Cheers
    Last edited by Baball; 21-08-2018 at 9:34 PM.
Page 1
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 21st Aug 18, 9:36 PM
    • 9,197 Posts
    • 9,370 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #2
    • 21st Aug 18, 9:36 PM
    • #2
    • 21st Aug 18, 9:36 PM
    Send the blue text appeal from the first post in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.

    Send it as the keeper.

    Send it unchanged - no additions or changes needed.

    That's all there is to it at this stage.

    The keeper of the other vehicle should do exactly the same.
    .
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 21st Aug 18, 9:41 PM
    • 19,383 Posts
    • 30,617 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 21st Aug 18, 9:41 PM
    • #3
    • 21st Aug 18, 9:41 PM
    1. Absolutely.

    2. Yep, use the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1 template. Add a final,paragraph, but be really careful not to identify the driver. If it's worked previously, then why not try again, but take nothing for granted. Hope for the best, expect the worst!

    3. Why not. In all likelihood the appeals will go to different appeal handlers. If you have time available (from the PE 28-day appeal window), why not send one off, see how that goes, then adapt the second one if necessary. Any inconsistency (given the identical nature and circumstances of the charges) can ultimately be raised with POPLA
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Baball
    • By Baball 30th Aug 18, 10:02 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Baball
    • #4
    • 30th Aug 18, 10:02 PM
    • #4
    • 30th Aug 18, 10:02 PM
    Well, the appeal to ParkingEye was unsuccessful, no surprises I guess. Time to start drafting the POPLA appeal...
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Aug 18, 10:04 PM
    • 61,458 Posts
    • 74,333 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 30th Aug 18, 10:04 PM
    • #5
    • 30th Aug 18, 10:04 PM
    POPLA like it if you prove that you went to an alternative site/parked somewhere else, as it proves you did not accept the 'parking contract' and left and went to somewhere else (what evidence might you have, even a corroborating statement from your OH passenger?).

    Search the forum for Parkingeye POPLA grace period left alternative
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 30th Aug 18, 10:05 PM
    • 2,752 Posts
    • 3,470 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    • #6
    • 30th Aug 18, 10:05 PM
    • #6
    • 30th Aug 18, 10:05 PM
    and ....


    write to your MP .......




    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

    and slightly longer, the committee stage

    https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/d5550515-cce9-4185-83ec-754dadb7524a

    ''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

    These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.

    and some quotes from the committe stage

    "The other area is hospital parking, and I want to single out one company for some pretty shady practices. That is ParkingEye"
    " is very clear to me that there is collusion between parking companies and solicitors’ firms—so-called roboclaims companies. "
    "They are often set up adjacently and involve the same directors and personnel. Incidentally, the same personnel get involved in the so-called appeals bodies."
    "Essentially, it is a money-making enterprise that takes advantage of motorists up and down the country. They operate in a very business-like fashion, which is why I call them roboclaims companies."
    "The companies are jamming up parts of our legal system."
    “I now pretty much know exactly how the parking companies and in particular the IPC have been running this scam for the past 5 years. Basically both of the appeals processes are a complete and utter sham, (and part of that sham is Gladstones Solicitors itself)”
    "The appeals process at Excel/VCS is run by a team of minimum wage office workers with no legal knowledge or experience whatsoever,"
    " It is claimed by the head of the appeals service (retired Judge Bryn Holloway) that this is a completely independent fair process, it is not”
    "The letter mentions two individuals—Will Hurley and Bryn Holloway—and concludes this is a typical example of the clear collusion between the IPC, their members and the IAS"
    "what we can do about roboclaims companies and solicitors firms that profit, often in shady ways"
    " the very large amounts of money that can be involved in such scams—a company called Smart Parking was involved in one such scam on my patch"
    "tightening up the rules regarding the unfair use of automatic number plate recognition" "BW Legal, regularly issues 10,000 county court judgments a month, and is known to have issued 28,000 in one month"
    "They are jamming up our court system, and are often totally unjustified."
    " because the lifeblood of trying to extort money from people is having access to their details."

    All from Parking (Code of Practice) Bill (First sitting) Hansard





    Ralph
    • Baball
    • By Baball 30th Aug 18, 10:38 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Baball
    • #7
    • 30th Aug 18, 10:38 PM
    • #7
    • 30th Aug 18, 10:38 PM
    POPLA like it if you prove that you went to an alternative site/parked somewhere else, as it proves you did not accept the 'parking contract' and left and went to somewhere else (what evidence might you have, even a corroborating statement from your OH passenger?).

    Search the forum for Parkingeye POPLA grace period left alternative
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Ah this is interesting, I've not come across this in other threads yet. The vehicle left and went to a nearby town where it was parked for an hour or two (fully paid), annoyingly the driver doesn't have the ticket anymore though. What kind of statement would be considered formal enough?

    Also, is using Google maps timeline an option? It shows the vehicle was only briefly in the car park where the PCN was issued, but later stayed for a while in a different car park.
    Last edited by Baball; 30-08-2018 at 10:53 PM.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 30th Aug 18, 10:42 PM
    • 19,213 Posts
    • 24,409 Thanks
    Redx
    • #8
    • 30th Aug 18, 10:42 PM
    • #8
    • 30th Aug 18, 10:42 PM
    of course you can use google map evidence to support the view that the driver went elsewhere and so was NOT PARKED for the duration
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Aug 18, 11:34 PM
    • 61,458 Posts
    • 74,333 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 30th Aug 18, 11:34 PM
    • #9
    • 30th Aug 18, 11:34 PM
    Also, is using Google maps timeline an option? It shows the vehicle was only briefly in the car park where the PCN was issued, but later stayed for a while in a different car park.
    100% yes - POPLA love that, plus a letter signed by the passenger giving VRN, time/date and locations, confirming what happened.

    Concentrate on deciding not to accept the terms of the CAR PARK, not that you arrived then decided not to use the attraction. This needs to be about the car park terms not being accepted, and proof that you went elsewhere. And that it took 14 minutes because it was the height of the Summer, a very busy beach car park (or whatever) and cars were at a standstill and there were a lack of parking spaces, and then you decided not to stay and never accepted any parking terms, and left as soon as possible, waiting as you had to, for other cars manoeuvring and pedestrians walking around, children with buckets & spades and the fact the exit leads out to a main road with a red traffic light and a queue...etc. (edit to suit!).

    Then all the usual POPLA templates from the NEWBIES thread post #3 to make it 12 to 14 pages long, including a screenshot imbedded into the appeal PDF, showing the Google maps proof. And then upload the very long appeal, plus the witness statement from the passenger.

    What about having tickets/proof of payment to the alternative attraction or shops you ended up at, instead in another part of town later that afternoon, that shows you moved on with your patronage?

    Out of interest - does your Google maps timeline match the minutes the PPC has invented, to the minute? Just wondering.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 30-08-2018 at 11:37 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Baball
    • By Baball 11th Sep 18, 7:53 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Baball
    Google shows the vehicle was there for around 10 minutes, and then headed off to another town.
    • Baball
    • By Baball 11th Sep 18, 9:18 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Baball
    So I'm putting together the POPLA appeal, using the template points and some inspiration from other appeals.

    Regarding the planning permission for signs and ANPR cameras, is this point valid where the car park is on private land? Or is planning permission still required?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Sep 18, 9:32 PM
    • 19,383 Posts
    • 30,617 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Regarding the planning permission for signs and ANPR cameras, is this point valid where the car park is on private land? Or is planning permission still required?
    Originally posted by Baball
    A totally moot point which POPLA will completely ignore. While you can put it into your appeal to give the PPC more to respond to, I'd waste no time in contemplating your navel about any of the finer points about it.

    If you want to have any prospect of doing 'damage' on this point, in some attempt to give the PPC 'grief', then take it up with the Local Authority in whose area the car park resides. POPLA is of no use to you in this regard, nor in terms of your appeal being upheld.
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Baball
    • By Baball 11th Sep 18, 11:15 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Baball
    A totally moot point which POPLA will completely ignore.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Hi Umkomaas, which bit is moot, the planning permission argument generally, or the requirement on private land, or both? Several template appeals have had this point in it so I thought it should be included...
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Sep 18, 11:28 PM
    • 61,458 Posts
    • 74,333 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    the planning permission argument generally,
    Forget that entire argument. It is not one of the template POPLA points in post #3 of the NEWBIES thread for good reason (if it is there tell me and I will delete it right now).

    Do not include it.

    Google shows the vehicle was there for around 10 minutes, and then headed off to another town.
    Are you saying that you have proof that the ANPR camera images are several minutes wrong? Tell POPLA that the operator appears to have exaggerated the time on site, or used unsynchronised timers for the in/out ANPR cameras because GSV proves that the car was only there for around 10 minutes (and Google Maps follow a phone's location in real time) yet the ANPR images have made up another 3 minutes and this is proof of error by the operator's system.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Baball
    • By Baball 12th Sep 18, 9:39 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Baball
    Forget that entire argument. It is not one of the template POPLA points in post #3 of the NEWBIES thread for good reason (if it is there tell me and I will delete it right now).

    Do not include it.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Hi Coupon-mad,

    I'm confused now, that argument is featured in many of the appeals posted here for review, including one linked in the newbies thread (although to be fair that was cited as an example of the grace period argument). If I'm to include only arguments listed in the newbies thread that apply, that would leave me with:

    Grace Period
    Signage
    Landowner authority

    Is that sufficient? That doesn't feel like the 'kitchen sink' approach I've seen mentioned, and nor have I seen many examples with so few points. Many of the posted appeals contain points such as ANPR compliance, ANPR reliability, planning permission.

    Apologies if I'm totally misunderstanding, I'm just trying to get my head around the best way to do this as it feels like some of the guidance is conflicting.


    Are you saying that you have proof that the ANPR camera images are several minutes wrong? Tell POPLA that the operator appears to have exaggerated the time on site, or used unsynchronised timers for the in/out ANPR cameras because GSV proves that the car was only there for around 10 minutes (and Google Maps follow a phone's location in real time) yet the ANPR images have made up another 3 minutes and this is proof of error by the operator's system.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I would have thought a few minutes would be a reasonable margin of error between the two systems and that the Google information is better suited to proving the vehicle moved on and parked elsewhere?

    Thanks again for your help, I really do appreciate it. I just want to nail this, and ParkingEye!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Sep 18, 9:54 PM
    • 61,458 Posts
    • 74,333 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Forget Planning permission, the only reason it was tacked on the end of someone's POPLA appeal that was used as an example would be if the rest of their POPLA appeal was good. A Planning/Advertising Consent argument does not win at POPLA.

    I would have thought a few minutes would be a reasonable margin of error between the two systems and that the Google information is better suited to proving the vehicle moved on and parked elsewhere?
    Why the question mark, isn't that what I said? It's a major point for you, your first point!

    If ParkingEye's ANPR says the car was there for say, 14 minutes, and you can prove from Google Maps location, that the car & driver were there for just, say 10 minutes, that margin of error by the ANPR camera is enormous!

    It makes all the difference for ParkingEye, is arguably fraudulent and disingenuously allows them to produce PCNs for everyone who only visited the site for 7 - 10 mins, because they are saying those drivers exceeded a grace period that they did not.

    It is so bad, such a serious margin of error, that your evidence is worth reporting to the ICO, and how about telling 'Big Brother Watch' who have some clout too.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 12-09-2018 at 9:56 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Baball
    • By Baball 14th Sep 18, 10:06 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Baball
    OK, before I go too far down the wrong road with all the content, how is this for the structure and argument points?

    1. Grace Period
    a. BPA CoP (updated for 2018)
    b. Signs at entrance not obvious as to parking conditions, much smaller than the direction signs you are more likely to observe
    c. Busy summer’s day, took time to locate parking spaces, disembark, locate and read signs, discuss between both parties (there were two vehicles), get toddler safely restrained in car seat again, and navigate a busy car park to the exit

    2. Alternative parking then sought
    a. Further evidence contract not accepted
    b. Google timeline
    c. Transaction evidence from alternative location

    3. POFA compliance
    a. No ‘period of parking’, only entry/exit and ‘time of stay’
    b. ANPR exit image is at a busy road junction, vehicle could be waiting at that position, no evidence on when the image was captured

    4. Keeper liability
    a. Template version

    5. Landowner authority
    a. Template version

    6. ANPR system reliability
    a. Refer again to Google timeline
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Sep 18, 11:18 PM
    • 61,458 Posts
    • 74,333 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes - looks good.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

396Posts Today

5,746Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • RT @Dora_Haf: @MartinSLewis So many people on here saying they're great until you get your PROPER job. What if Your proper job Is ON zero?

  • RT @hslt88: @MartinSLewis I?m a trustee for a youth charity. We only have a limited pool of funds for flexible youth workers for holiday sc?

  • RT @Dan_i_elle_88: @MartinSLewis Loved working zero hour agency care work. Never out of work and I loved having the flexibility! Only left?

  • Follow Martin