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  • FIRST POST
    • Torslanda
    • By Torslanda 12th Aug 18, 2:12 PM
    • 4Posts
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    Torslanda
    NW Parking Management - Not parking within marked within markings
    • #1
    • 12th Aug 18, 2:12 PM
    NW Parking Management - Not parking within marked within markings 12th Aug 18 at 2:12 PM
    Hi all,

    Newbie here, but I have read the newbies post and have a good idea what to do, but I have a few specific questions I'm hoping some of you might be able to help with, so I hope it's OK to start this thread.
    [Sorry, as a new user I can't post full links]

    The background is that my car was parked in Carlisle on a private car park and I have received a NTK for the alleged infraction of "not being parked correctly within the markings of the bay or space". I can't find too many examples of this on the forums here. Please see below images of the NTK and their photographs of my car. I have heavily redacted and anonymised these as I know that the PPCs monitor these forums. However, as you'll see, the only wheel that is over the white line is no more than about 4cm over. Furthermore, this was an end space and no vehicle could have parked on that side of my vehicle. In fact, if anything, this could only have maximised vehicular access for the vehicle next to my car. Please also see Google Street Maps image below of the car park and the space in question. The space was the one occupied by the grey Audi in that photograph, and as my vehicle had been reversed in, the wheel which was over the line was in the position of the Audi's front near side wheel in that photo.

    Google Street Map image of car park and space: postimg.cc/image/espg3stwb/
    PCN page 1: postimg.cc/image/tnwf109vv/
    PCN page 2: postimg.cc/image/828yudegb/
    PCN photos of car: postimg.cc/image/5k5nci1mz/
    Car park signs 1: postimg.cc/image/r8m5xo59n/
    Car park signs 2: postimg.cc/image/glscs9k9n/
    Car park signs 3: postimg.cc/image/718q5dfi3/
    Car park signs 4: postimg.cc/image/718q5dfi3/

    My contention is therefore that a 4cm overhang was not reasonable grounds to invoke a condition requiring the driver to "park correctly within the markings" and that it was issued by an overzealous parking attendant motivated more by profiteering than proper management of the car park, who did not apply the discretion that a reasonable person would do under the circumstances. In short, it was unreasonable, and my defence is one of de minimis (padi.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360006354853-De-Minimis).

    During my research I also found this Guardian article (theguardian.com/money/2013/apr/18/how-challenge-parking-ticket) which states:

    Check that any Notice to the Registered Keeper was sent out more than 28 days after the parking ticket was issued. If it was sent earlier then the parking company cannot sue the registered keeper for any alleged parking charges. If the parking company requested that the DVLA provide the name and address of the registered keeper earlier than 28 days after issuing a ticket, it cannot sue the registered keeper. It also may be a breach of the Data Protection Act, for which the DVLA may be liable.
    In my case, they do not know who the driver was, and the NTK was sent 3 days after the alleged transgression.

    I'm also intending to hit them with a GDPR Subject Access Request; draft at the foot of this post.

    I'm currently preparing the initial 'appeal' but in the meantime would be grateful for any advice on the following:


    1. How winnable is this?
    2. What do the Guardian mean by "NTK must be after 28 days"? Mine was well within this. What statute or case law are they referring to and how do I use this in my defence?
    3. When should I issue the GDPR SAR? At the same time as the initial appeal (i.e. go nuclear and hit them with everything at once to let them know this is going to be difficult)? Or after they have rejected my initial appeal (by which time they are likely to be out of time to comply with Article 14 anyway)?
    4. Do you think my SAR could be considered "manifestly unfounded or excessive" and that they could ignore it on those grounds? Should I tone it down a bit?


    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    GDPR SAR draft:

    Dear Sir/Madam,


    FOR THE ATTENTION OF THE DATA CONTROLLER

    I am writing to you in your capacity as data protection officer for your company NORTHWEST PARKING MANAGEMENT LTD. I have reason to believe you hold personal data on myself as a vehicle I own and am the registered keeper for has visited car parking sites managed by your company. The vehicle in question is a VEHICLE MAKE/MODEL with VRM: VEHICLE REGISTRATION. I have attached the V5 document to prove I am the registered keeper. Should you require further documentation necessary to verify my identity please contact me.


    Please heed the following:

    1. I understand that my personal information was obtained from DVLA and as such you have not yet provided me with all of the information required in paragraphs 1 and 2 of Article 14 of the GDPR legislation. You are required to do this within, at most, 1 month of the collection of the data. [LEAVE IT AS LATE AS POSSIBLE TO SUBMIT THIS TO ENSURE THEY FAIL COMPLIANCE??] Please therefore ensure that I receive all of the requisite information from paragraphs 1 and 2 within that time.


    2. Separately, and supplemental to the above, I hereby request access to my personal data pursuant to Article 15 of the General Data Protection Regulation. I would like you to be aware at the outset, that I anticipate a reply to my request within one month as required under Article 12, failing which I will be forwarding my inquiry with a letter of complaint to the Information Commissioners Office (ICO).

    Please advise as to the following:


    a) Please confirm to me whether or not my personal data is being processed. If it is, please provide me with the categories of personal data you have about me in your files and databases.

    i. In particular, please tell me what you know about me in your information systems, whether or not contained in databases, and including e-mail, documents on your networks, or voice or other media that you may store.


    ii. Additionally, please advise me in which countries my personal data is stored, or accessible from. In case you make use of cloud services to store or process my data, please include the countries in which the servers are located where my data are or were (in the past 12 months) stored.


    iii. Please provide me with a copy of, or access to, my personal data that you have been or are processing.

    b) I would like to know your information policies and standards that you follow in relation to the safeguarding of my personal data, such as whether you adhere to ISO27001 for information security, and more particularly, your practices in relation to the following:


    i. Please inform me whether you have backed up my personal data to tape, disk or other media, and where it is stored and how it is secured, including what steps you have taken to protect my personal data from loss or theft, and whether this includes encryption.


    ii. Please advise what steps you have taken to secure and safeguard my data from unauthorised access, by digital or other means, such as
    Encryption of my personal data
    Data minimisation strategies
    Anonymization or pseudonymization
    Any other means
    iii. Please also advise whether you have in place any technology which allows you with reasonable certainty to know whether or not my personal data has been disclosed, including but not limited to the following:
    Intrusion detection systems
    Firewall technologies
    Access and identity management technologies
    Database audit and/or security tools
    Behavioural analysis tools, log analysis tools, or audit tools
    c) Please provide me with a detailed accounting of the specific uses and lawful basis that you have made, are making or will be making of my personal data.


    d) Please provide a list of all third parties with whom you have (or may have) shared my personal data.

    i. If you cannot identify with certainty the specific third parties to whom you have disclosed my personal data, please provide a list of third parties to whom you may have disclosed my personal data.


    ii. Please provide the same information about data and security in relation to the third parties to whom you have, or may have, disclosed my personal data as requested in relation to your own systems as per 2(b)(i, ii and iii) above.


    iii. Please also identify from which jurisdictions that you have identified in 2(a)(ii) above, that these third parties with whom you have or may have shared my personal data have stored or can access my personal data. Please also provide insight into the legal grounds for transferring my personal data to these jurisdictions. Where you have done so, or are doing so, on the basis of appropriate safeguards, please provide a copy.


    iv. Additionally, I would like to know what safeguards you yourselves have put in place in relation to these third parties in relation to the transfer of my personal data.


    v. Please advise how long you store my personal data, and if retention is based upon the category of personal data, please identify how long each category is retained.


    e) If you are additionally collecting personal data about me from any sources other than me, please provide me with all information about those sources, as referred to in Article 14 of the GDPR.


    f) If you are making automated decisions about me, including profiling, whether or not on the basis of Article 22 of the GDPR, please provide me with information concerning the basis for the logic in making such automated decisions, and the significance and consequences of such processing.


    g) In regards to employees and contractors, please advise as to the following:
    i. What technologies or business procedures do you have to ensure that individuals within your organization will be monitored to ensure that they do not deliberately or inadvertently disclose personal data outside your company, through e-mail, web-mail or instant messaging, or otherwise.


    ii. Have you had had any circumstances in which employees or contractors have been dismissed, and/or been charged under criminal laws for accessing my personal data inappropriately, or if you are unable to determine this, of any customers, in the past twelve months.


    iii. Please advise as to what training and awareness measures you have taken in order to ensure that employees and contractors are accessing and processing my personal data in conformity with the General Data Protection Regulation.


    Please ensure you respond specifically to each of the above points and set out your response in the same manner using their respective number or sub-list identifiers so that it is clear what your response to each point is. I look forward to receiving your full response by [DATE IN THE FUTURE].

    Yours faithfully,

    DATA SUBJECT NAME
Page 1
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 12th Aug 18, 2:16 PM
    • 8,596 Posts
    • 8,471 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #2
    • 12th Aug 18, 2:16 PM
    • #2
    • 12th Aug 18, 2:16 PM
    Have you read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread?

    Have you sent an initial appeal to the PPC?

    Was there a windscreen Notice to Driver?
    .
    • Torslanda
    • By Torslanda 12th Aug 18, 2:20 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Torslanda
    • #3
    • 12th Aug 18, 2:20 PM
    • #3
    • 12th Aug 18, 2:20 PM
    Have you read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread?
    Yes.

    Have you sent an initial appeal to the PPC?
    Not yet. I came here first. :-) But I am preparing it.

    Was there a windscreen Notice to Driver
    No.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 12th Aug 18, 2:23 PM
    • 36,820 Posts
    • 20,950 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #4
    • 12th Aug 18, 2:23 PM
    • #4
    • 12th Aug 18, 2:23 PM
    There is no preparation required for the initial appeal.

    Copy the template!
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 12th Aug 18, 2:23 PM
    • 1,648 Posts
    • 2,144 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    • #5
    • 12th Aug 18, 2:23 PM
    • #5
    • 12th Aug 18, 2:23 PM
    hard to see how an ANPR camera was able to see the car parked over a line

    "the NTK was sent 3 days after the alleged transgression. "


    was a ticket placed on the car?
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 12th Aug 18, 2:25 PM
    • 8,596 Posts
    • 8,471 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #6
    • 12th Aug 18, 2:25 PM
    • #6
    • 12th Aug 18, 2:25 PM
    As there was no windscreen ticket, that 28 days mentioned by the Guardian is not relevant.
    In your case they have to get the NtK to the Keeper within fourteen days of the incident and have done so.

    Just send the blue text template appeal to the PPC.

    Send it as it is.
    Send it as the keeper.

    That's all there is to it at this stage.
    Last edited by KeithP; 12-08-2018 at 2:29 PM.
    .
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 12th Aug 18, 2:25 PM
    • 1,648 Posts
    • 2,144 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    • #7
    • 12th Aug 18, 2:25 PM
    • #7
    • 12th Aug 18, 2:25 PM
    Yes.

    Not yet. I came here first. :-) But I am preparing it.


    was there a windscreen ticket
    No.
    Originally posted by Torslanda

    so , how did an automated camera spot the incident

    ANPR camera photos being shown in court would result in a laugh
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Torslanda
    • By Torslanda 12th Aug 18, 2:33 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Torslanda
    • #8
    • 12th Aug 18, 2:33 PM
    • #8
    • 12th Aug 18, 2:33 PM
    Thanks Quentin. Shall I include the aggressive part:


    Firms of your ilk were unanimously condemned in 2018 as operating an 'outrageous scam' (Hansard 2.2.18). The BPA & IPC were heavily criticised too; hardly surprising for an industry where so-called AOS members admit to letting victims 'futilely go through the motions' of appeal and say on camera 'we make it up sometimes' (BBC Watchdog).
    ... or is that likely to just annoy them and make them dig their heels in?


    Also:


    I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner,
    ... I don't know who the landowner is. It was just a car park (not a store, retail park, hospital etc. car park).
    • Torslanda
    • By Torslanda 12th Aug 18, 2:35 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Torslanda
    • #9
    • 12th Aug 18, 2:35 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Aug 18, 2:35 PM
    Thanks twhitehousecat,


    I'm sure it wasn't an ANPR as I have been back since and looked around the car park. There are no cameras. I believe it was an 'on foot' attendant snooping around checking tickets and taking photographs of anything he/she thought could make them some extra money.
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 12th Aug 18, 2:37 PM
    • 1,648 Posts
    • 2,144 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    Thanks Quentin. Shall I include the aggressive part:



    ... or is that likely to just annoy them and make them dig their heels in?


    Also:



    ... I don't know who the landowner is. It was just a car park (not a store, retail park, hospital etc. car park).
    Originally posted by Torslanda


    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=74649885&postcount=6
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • B789
    • By B789 12th Aug 18, 2:39 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    B789
    Gosh... I love reading these forums but it never amazes me to observe human nature and the inability to process information properly...

    Just send the blue text template appeal to the PPC.

    Send it as it is.
    Send it as the keeper.

    That's all there is to it at this stage.
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Thanks Quentin. Shall I include the aggressive part:

    ... or is that likely to just annoy them and make them dig their heels in?
    Originally posted by Torslanda
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 12th Aug 18, 2:44 PM
    • 37,187 Posts
    • 83,901 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    The article from the Grainiad is utterly wrong. It gives incorrect information of the worst kind, and unfortunately people will believe it, follow it, and drop themselves in it as a result
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 12th Aug 18, 2:47 PM
    • 1,648 Posts
    • 2,144 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    please note , BPA conditions (code of practice) state that in the case of an ANPR type of ticket , photos should be enclosed with the NTK , in most cases those would be timed ones showing entry/exit times

    however in the case of NW parking management , dispensation has been allowed and he has licenced 42 drones
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 12th Aug 18, 2:49 PM
    • 37,187 Posts
    • 83,901 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Google Street Map image of car park and space: https://postimg.cc/image/espg3stwb/
    PCN page 1: https://postimg.cc/image/tnwf109vv/
    PCN page 2: https://postimg.cc/image/828yudegb/
    PCN photos of car: https://postimg.cc/image/5k5nci1mz/
    Car park signs 1: https://postimg.cc/image/r8m5xo59n/
    Car park signs 2: https://postimg.cc/image/glscs9k9n/
    Car park signs 3: https://postimg.cc/image/718q5dfi3/
    Car park signs 4: https://postimg.cc/image/718q5dfi3/

    Inadequate signage will be one of the winning points. The 100 charge is in tiny font.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 12-08-2018 at 2:51 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 12th Aug 18, 2:57 PM
    • 1,648 Posts
    • 2,144 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    https://postimg.cc/image/718q5dfi3/

    we collect your data by CCTV / ANPR cameras or attendant on site

    in this case it is clear that the data was collected by "attendant on site" so a ticket should have been placed on the car and data collected from the DVLA after 29 days
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 12th Aug 18, 3:03 PM
    • 37,187 Posts
    • 83,901 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    PCN 1 and 2: -

    No mention of the POFA at all.

    Uses a prohibited premium rate 'phone number. Minor but should still be mentioned.

    The name of the creditor changes part way through from Northwest Parking to Northwest Park.

    Using the word "should" in conjunction with "supply the name and address of the driver" is misleading. The PoFA 2012 makes no such statement. Complain to the BPA and DVLA.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 12-08-2018 at 3:07 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Aug 18, 3:58 PM
    • 18,847 Posts
    • 29,664 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    https://postimg.cc/image/718q5dfi3/

    we collect your data by CCTV / ANPR cameras or attendant on site

    in this case it is clear that the data was collected by "attendant on site" so a ticket should have been placed on the car and data collected from the DVLA after 29 days
    Originally posted by twhitehousescat
    Dispensation from the DVLA that hand-held camera shots can be the equivalent of ANPR camera capture, with NtK following within 14 days. Helps with the cash flow!

    No windscreen ticket required, plenty of them at it, Mrs Sunglasses at Heath Parade really milked the opportunity provided by the DVLA's 'blind eye'!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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