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    • fibonarchie
    • By fibonarchie 12th Aug 18, 1:58 PM
    • 782Posts
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    fibonarchie
    any housewives out there?
    • #1
    • 12th Aug 18, 1:58 PM
    any housewives out there? 12th Aug 18 at 1:58 PM
    I was listening to a programme on the radio last night about housewives (or the history of being a housewife in Britain and how it's changed over the decades)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07kl9gk

    Experts have done the sums, and it appears that if housewives were actually paid for what they do (namely, childcare, cleaning, etc) their annual salary would be in the region of £48k

    I always found it interesting that when you pay someone to look after your children childcare is regarded as a job, but for those who take the trouble to look after their children themselves, people consider it a non-job and a cushy way of life. Same with cleaning. What would a cleaner get paid - £12 per hour or so? All done for free by the housewife.

    It was an interesting programme, and sparked off several trains of discussion, - among them: should housewives be paid for what they do, and (more contentiously) has feminism made it difficult for women to make the choice to be a housewife these days. In fact the term 'housewife' itself is seen as a sort of a put-down, by many people.

    Looking after the home and children is for many women (and doubtless some men) a rewarding job but obviously not one that everyone is cut out for.

    Discuss

    (By the way, wasn't sure whether to post this on here, the Old Style board or discussion time. Mods pls move the thread if it belongs somewhere else )
    When England was a Kingdom we had a King, when we were an empire we had an emperor. Now we're a country and we have Margaret Thatcher

    the late great Kenny Everett
Page 2
    • onomatopoeia99
    • By onomatopoeia99 12th Aug 18, 6:21 PM
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    onomatopoeia99
    They employ a cleaner, stick the child/ren into childcare and generally hire people to do the jobs that would have been done by the housewife.
    Originally posted by fibonarchie
    No, they don't. I know enough families where both partners work that manage to do all the housework between them without buying in services and still engage with their children before and after school.


    You have painted an entirely fallacious picture of family life where both partners work to further the agenda you wish to peddle.
    INTP, nerd, libertarian and scifi geek.
    Home is where my books are.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 12th Aug 18, 7:18 PM
    • 3,030 Posts
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    Red-Squirrel
    They employ a cleaner, stick the child/ren into childcare and generally hire people to do the jobs that would have been done by the housewife.

    Or they just don't bother doing much housework or cooking and leave the kids to their own devices Something has to give.
    Originally posted by fibonarchie
    Do you really believe this?

    I think part of your research into this topic should include spending a week shadowing a ‘housewife’ with two primary school aged children and then a week shadowing a full time working woman on an average salary with children the same age.

    Then you might have a bit more understanding of the subject.
    • blindman
    • By blindman 12th Aug 18, 7:19 PM
    • 5,171 Posts
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    blindman
    Experts have done the sums, and it appears that if housewives were actually paid for what they do (namely, childcare, cleaning, etc) their annual salary would be in the region of £48k
    Originally posted by fibonarchie
    Bloke here

    We have been married 41 years

    My wife has looked after our two children, cleaned the house, cooked and has worked locally whenever she could at the various RAF stations across the world.

    Her salary:- My undying love and devotion.

    I have provided
    Diy skills
    Gardening
    Chauffeur
    Financier
    Travel agent
    Lover
    Emotional support

    My salary:- Her undying love.

    Priceless.

    No "expert" could evaluate the price of true love.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 12th Aug 18, 7:19 PM
    • 3,030 Posts
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    Red-Squirrel
    Yes, but is that sustainable? Effectively doing 2 jobs. Is that what the feminist movement wanted for women?
    Originally posted by fibonarchie
    It would help if men did their fair share of domestic work, all the research shows that most don’t.
    • jackomdj
    • By jackomdj 12th Aug 18, 7:22 PM
    • 2,860 Posts
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    jackomdj
    We both work, OH is often away during the week so just me running around after the children, taking them to Guides, netball, rookie lifeguards. Tidying the house, doing the dishes, doing the washing etc.
    In my experience, with my group of friends and family, it is the families who both work, who then go on to keep (without help usually) the house clean and tidy, and the children do lots of activities. You make your choices in life, I choose to work, which enables us to have a financially more comfortable life style, it means I can give my children opportunities they would not have if I was t working. But I can't stand a messy house, so wouldn't want it to be messy and dirty just because I work.
    • Kynthia
    • By Kynthia 12th Aug 18, 7:25 PM
    • 5,214 Posts
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    Kynthia
    They employ a cleaner, stick the child/ren into childcare and generally hire people to do the jobs that would have been done by the housewife.

    Or they just don't bother doing much housework or cooking and leave the kids to their own devices Something has to give.
    Originally posted by fibonarchie
    You have very strange views of working parents. I don't know any that have their children in childcare for longer than their working hours and commute, so everything outside work or in the home will still need to be done while also looking after the children but after having also worked. Most jobs can't be hired out so you still need to take the children to the doctors, dentist, hairdresser, clubs, clothes/shoe shopping, etc. Dinner still needs cooking, clothes still need washing, holidays still need researching and booking, banking, bills and paperwork still needs sorting and the children's homework still needs monitoring. Not all get cleaners and those that do only save themselves one or two hours a week, and I'm sure more cleaning and tidying is needed when there are children. I don't know anyone with school-age children that uses an ironing service and most still do their own decorating. Do you live in an area where most can outsource all these tasks or did you say that without thinking about it in detail?

    I'm not saying being a stay at home parent is easier as it's hard in a different way and people are all different with regards to what they find easier, enjoy more, are better at, etc. Plus those who don't work tend to have less income coming in and therefore spend more time reducing their outgoings and making a little money. They use their time to research better deals, cook more meals from scratch which can be cheaper, go to more shops to find better prices meaning the food shop takes longer, mend things, bake instead of buy, visit charity shops to find bargains, take the time to eBay low value items to make a little money, etc. Probably lots of things working parents don't have the time to do. Not everyone has a choice as to which they are but at the end of the day most of us are working hard in some way and we're all just trying to do our best.
    Last edited by Kynthia; 12-08-2018 at 7:34 PM.
    Don't listen to me, I'm no expert!
    • sheepy21
    • By sheepy21 12th Aug 18, 9:15 PM
    • 148 Posts
    • 136 Thanks
    sheepy21
    I'm 27 and a proud housewife people think it's sitting about doing nothing, but it isn't. I'm at home with our son, which believe me is a full time job and then there's running the house, shopping etc. I know I'm very lucky to be able to stay at home, but it works well for us and I've been much happier not working
    • cjdavies
    • By cjdavies 12th Aug 18, 10:36 PM
    • 3,444 Posts
    • 3,692 Thanks
    cjdavies
    Single (no kids) working full time bloke here, running the house, food shopping, ironing, washing (is a !!!!!! looking at the weather in evenings for next day - sun great, wash on - morning oh great rain and vice versa!)

    Parcel deliveries - thank christ for Amazon lockers - if a company uses Yodel, Hermes etc then forget it.

    Day off for someone to come around to install something, wonderful!

    Hard? No, a pain? Yes.
    Last edited by cjdavies; 12-08-2018 at 10:38 PM.
    • thriftyemma
    • By thriftyemma 12th Aug 18, 11:08 PM
    • 320 Posts
    • 863 Thanks
    thriftyemma
    I don't call myself a housewife. Firstly, I'm not married. And secondly, even if I was, I'm certainly not married to the house! I proudly call myself a stay at home mum to three primary aged children.

    It is a demanding, full time job. I just roughly added up how much time I spend doing 'household' and 'children' related tasks, and it adds up to around 35-40 hours a week! Even if I was paid minimum wage, I'd be earning a hell of a lot more than I do now. And I know there are plenty of families where both parents work, I do wonder how. To each their own, I am glad I had the luxury of choosing whether or not I stayed at home.

    I think the point should be to highlight that who ever does the caregiving, who ever does the household tasks, we should value them and appreciate their work. It's not a cop out, or a cushy job. Neither is working the traditional 9-5. Each family should do what works for them, and neither stay at home parents nor working parents should be made to feel any less of themselves.
    Last edited by thriftyemma; 12-08-2018 at 11:13 PM.
    • trailingspouse
    • By trailingspouse 13th Aug 18, 1:54 AM
    • 2,692 Posts
    • 4,408 Thanks
    trailingspouse
    I've been studying my family tree for several years, and have managed to get quite a long way back. The jobs recorded for married women make intersting reading.



    Things I've noticed -

    - the further back you go, the less likely any job at all is recorded for a married woman
    - sometimes the husband's job is included eg 'farmer's wife', 'fisherman's wife'. This isn't as awful as it might sound to us today. The wife of a farmer had specific tasks to do, ditto the wife of a fisherman - they were unpaid, but were an integral part of running a farm or running a fishingboat.
    - the term 'housewife' wasn't much used before the 1950's
    - in the 1939 census (UK) the job was recorded as 'unpaid domestic duties'
    - in other countries, other phrases were used (eg in Australia it was 'home duties')
    - there is no retirement. Women in their 70's and 80's are still recorded as 'housewife' (or whatever the phrase in use at the time might have been).


    It's an interesting subject.
    • _shel
    • By _shel 13th Aug 18, 6:19 AM
    • 1,289 Posts
    • 2,207 Thanks
    _shel
    I'm 27 and a proud housewife people think it's sitting about doing nothing, but it isn't. I'm at home with our son, which believe me is a full time job and then there's running the house, shopping etc. I know I'm very lucky to be able to stay at home, but it works well for us and I've been much happier not working
    Originally posted by sheepy21
    Snap, I'm doing a full time job looking after house and child. I also volunteer but always check housewife and am happy to do so.
    • Tabbytabitha
    • By Tabbytabitha 13th Aug 18, 8:11 AM
    • 3,599 Posts
    • 5,840 Thanks
    Tabbytabitha
    Bloke here

    We have been married 41 years

    My wife has looked after our two children, cleaned the house, cooked and has worked locally whenever she could at the various RAF stations across the world.

    Her salary:- My undying love and devotion.

    I have provided
    Diy skills
    Gardening
    Chauffeur
    Financier
    Travel agent
    Lover
    Emotional support

    My salary:- Her undying love.

    Priceless.

    No "expert" could evaluate the price of true love.
    Originally posted by blindman
    Interesting that you don't list lover in your wife's skill set but perhaps we shouldn't pry.

    Like most men, you don't seem to appreciate the difference between the list of responsibilities you have and those you list as hers - perhaps you should ask her about this....
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 13th Aug 18, 10:10 AM
    • 1,977 Posts
    • 10,354 Thanks
    NBLondon
    Experts have done the sums, and it appears that if housewives were actually paid for what they do (namely, childcare, cleaning, etc) their annual salary would be in the region of £48k
    Originally posted by fibonarchie
    I'm sure this comes up every few years or so - and it does make a very valid point about how much it would cost if all of that effort was outsourced. And some families do choose to do exactly that if they can afford it.
    It was an interesting programme, and sparked off several trains of discussion, - among them: should housewives be paid for what they do, and (more contentiously) has feminism made it difficult for women to make the choice to be a housewife these days. In fact the term 'housewife' itself is seen as a sort of a put-down, by many people.
    Of course - the really traditionalist answer is that the main earner in the household was paying them by providing a house and "housekeeping" money. Hence the term housewife or " just a housewife" is seen by some as a lesser achievement than having a career because it implies (to them) being kept by/relying on a man. Not a popular idea with feminists even when there are still women who would prefer/choose/seek that option if available.
    My other half is a 'house husband'. Would love him to get paid for looking after the house!
    Originally posted by hazyjo
    Well - why aren't you paying him then?

    Yeah - the reality for many is/was that the more feminine half of the partnership does/did all/most of that as well as possibly working part-time. The split is more equitable than it used to be 50 years ago but I bet it's quite variable. The list that blindman just quoted is a good point - the traditional assumption is that the more masculine half of a partnership also contributes DIY, gardening, heavy-lifting, car maintenance etc. and if those were costed in at commercial rates would it approach the same figure?

    It's up to any partnership to make an equitable decision as to how to split those necessities and whether to do them in-house or outsource according to skill, time and funding. Or the best compromise they can...
    Womble #7 - Running Total £9.92 $2.49 €5.31 S//0.10 (that's supposed to be 10 Ukrainian kopiyki but the site is refusing to display the symbol) Bds$0.10 A$0.10 NZ$0.55 C$0.89 S$0.20 zl0.02 (Polish grosze) LB0.22 (Bulgarian stotinka) ISKr 5 DKr 0.50 CHF 0.50 R0.10 (Rand not Rupees) KD0.05 (Kuwaiti fils)
    • Kayalana99
    • By Kayalana99 13th Aug 18, 11:50 AM
    • 3,430 Posts
    • 6,120 Thanks
    Kayalana99
    I don't understand people that say they are 'busy' when they are a stay at home Mum.

    I raised two young children (now 4 and 5 so small age gap) whilst running an eBay business and still had plenty of time left over, I later went on to run a photography business and started a degree - and these three over lapped at one point with the kids being about 3 & 4...Luckily the eBay and photography fit well because the photography was more a summer boom and the eBay was more xmas it got serouisly busy but I don't forget the days where I was up till 2am in the morning then getting back up in the morning and finding time to study....then woman on the school run who stand around for 30-60min (which I don't have a problem with) talking, go on about how busy they are and tired from looking after the children....

    It really does not take '40 hours' to clean a house, cook dinner and/or make pack lunches....

    Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with stay at home mums, it's just I don't believe you can class yourself as being busy or hard done to. I find it difficult when woman say that the man does nothing round the house, when they aren't working a job and he is out the house for 10 hours a day + and if he complains he is tired it's 'wrong' because they have been looking after the kids.
    Last edited by Kayalana99; 13-08-2018 at 11:52 AM.
    People don't know what they want until you show them.
    • Tabbytabitha
    • By Tabbytabitha 13th Aug 18, 12:16 PM
    • 3,599 Posts
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    Tabbytabitha
    I'm sure this comes up every few years or so - and it does make a very valid point about how much it would cost if all of that effort was outsourced. And some families do choose to do exactly that if they can afford it.
    Of course - the really traditionalist answer is that the main earner in the household was paying them by providing a house and "housekeeping" money. Hence the term housewife or " just a housewife" is seen by some as a lesser achievement than having a career because it implies (to them) being kept by/relying on a man. Not a popular idea with feminists even when there are still women who would prefer/choose/seek that option if available.
    Well - why aren't you paying him then?

    Yeah - the reality for many is/was that the more feminine half of the partnership does/did all/most of that as well as possibly working part-time. The split is more equitable than it used to be 50 years ago but I bet it's quite variable. The list that blindman just quoted is a good point - the traditional assumption is that the more masculine half of a partnership also contributes DIY, gardening, heavy-lifting, car maintenance etc. and if those were costed in at commercial rates would it approach the same figure?

    It's up to any partnership to make an equitable decision as to how to split those necessities and whether to do them in-house or outsource according to skill, time and funding. Or the best compromise they can...
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    Because they earned less than the "more masculine" half of the partnership.

    You're also mking the same mistake as Blindman does in equating the two different areas of responsibility.
    • maman
    • By maman 13th Aug 18, 12:22 PM
    • 18,210 Posts
    • 108,905 Thanks
    maman
    I don't understand people that say they are 'busy' when they are a stay at home Mum.
    Originally posted by Kayalana99

    Thanks for posting that. Like you, I really can't understand how anyone could spend 40 hours a week on housework!


    I feel strongly that women have had equal opportunities in education for over 70 years and some feel that it's OK to use that to do housework. Of course I understand that women physically have the children and not all relationships work out but to turn childcare and house work into a full time job is a cop out IMO.
    • happyandcontented
    • By happyandcontented 13th Aug 18, 12:33 PM
    • 1,241 Posts
    • 2,346 Thanks
    happyandcontented
    Thanks for posting that. Like you, I really can't understand how anyone could spend 40 hours a week on housework!


    I feel strongly that women have had equal opportunities in education for over 70 years and some feel that it's OK to use that to do housework. Of course I understand that women physically have the children and not all relationships work out but to turn childcare and house work into a full time job is a cop out IMO.
    Originally posted by maman
    I am with you on the housework, but for pre school children I think that is an unfair statement.
    • davidwood681
    • By davidwood681 13th Aug 18, 12:39 PM
    • 466 Posts
    • 1,405 Thanks
    davidwood681
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-gbacsUKpc

    This thread reminded me of this
    • maman
    • By maman 13th Aug 18, 12:41 PM
    • 18,210 Posts
    • 108,905 Thanks
    maman
    I am with you on the housework, but for pre school children I think that is an unfair statement.
    Originally posted by happyandcontented

    I know what you mean but surely you can combine childcare with housework or socialising with friends/family or shopping or whatever. Of course there will be some dedicated time like reading stories or playing a game with them but most of the time I found I worked round them or they 'helped'.
    • happyandcontented
    • By happyandcontented 13th Aug 18, 12:46 PM
    • 1,241 Posts
    • 2,346 Thanks
    happyandcontented
    I know what you mean but surely you can combine childcare with housework or socialising with friends/family or shopping or whatever. Of course there will be some dedicated time like reading stories or playing a game with them but most of the time I found I worked round them or they 'helped'.
    Originally posted by maman
    Indeed you can, but that does not negate the fact that if done properly everything is else is fitted in around the needs of the children, so it is a full time job. Therefore, if that is what some women choose to do then that is/should be perfectly acceptable, hence, using words like 'cop out' is derogatory, anti choice and certainly not what the feminist movement fought for.
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