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    • mimi1234
    • By mimi1234 11th Aug 18, 9:00 PM
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    mimi1234
    Unpaid Debts
    • #1
    • 11th Aug 18, 9:00 PM
    Unpaid Debts 11th Aug 18 at 9:00 PM
    Following on from my thread from a year or two ago, I want to run something past the folks of MSE:
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5591344

    So I tried to get a charging order on the house, but it's not in his name - his wife and oldest child's name is on the deeds. He has since "moved out" of that address and in with another woman. I know the name of the street he now lives in but am struggling to get the exact address. I can't find him on the electoral register - the address it shows is the old address. I've tried to track him down but his car is parked outside different houses each time and sometimes in different streets.

    I've got his fancy sports car registration and I even snapped him getting in and out of it. It is on finance unfortunately.

    He has not been making the payments which he said he would. I'm getting roughly 100 every 3 months instead of every month.

    I've been to see a solicitor since which cost me a fair bit and was given 3 options:

    1) Another HCEO - but the solicitor said if the first one had problems, it might not be worth it.

    2) A third party debt order - I'm not sure how I would find out where he banks, so would this be a case of applying to every single bank going? I know he mentioned Barclays on the income and expenditure form so maybe give them a whirl (I spoke to someone in an HCEO office and they said the figures and details on the income and expenditure could all be made up and it's not actually checked)? Does anyone know how it works? Say if he has 10K in an account, do I just swoop in and take it or is it another long process? Also, if it costs say 200 per bank I apply to, is that my money gone or can I add it to the debt?

    3) Making him bankrupt - he currently has 3 companies in his name, I've had this checked on companies house. Company one is in the red (how I am not too sure as it is very successful). Company two is in the red. Company three is approx +250K but it is a company limited by a guarantee. The solicitor did say he might be putting the money directly from one of the companies in the red to the other company but couldn't say for certain because he couldn't look at the detailed profit and loss account on the companies house website.

    Which one would be my best option? Has anyone had any experience of these? The solicitor told me I can do all of these myself and wrote down all the form references for me. He said he could do them for me but it would cost me a lot of money.

    It's a lot of money he owes and the fact he parades around without a care in the world is really winding me up. Can someone please give me some advice.......
Page 1
    • steampowered
    • By steampowered 11th Aug 18, 9:53 PM
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    steampowered
    • #2
    • 11th Aug 18, 9:53 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Aug 18, 9:53 PM
    As you've already established that he is not being cooperative with HCEOs and that his car is on finance, HCEO might not be the best route.

    You can get lucky with third party debt orders sometimes. If you choose the bank correctly, first the account would be frozen. Then you would have to go to a court hearing to determine what happens with the cash - if this person needs those funds to live and has lots of other debts the judge might not agree to release all of it to you.

    Also, I gather from the other thread that this person seems to be up to his eyeballs in debt - I could be wrong but it sounds unlikely that he will have a lot of cash just sitting in a current account.

    Bankruptcy sounds like it would cause him a lot of problems but it ain't cheap. The court fee for bankruptcy is 280 and you have to deposit 990 to cover the official receiver's costs (you usually get these back eventually).
    • mimi1234
    • By mimi1234 12th Aug 18, 12:47 PM
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    mimi1234
    • #3
    • 12th Aug 18, 12:47 PM
    • #3
    • 12th Aug 18, 12:47 PM
    As you've already established that he is not being cooperative with HCEOs and that his car is on finance, HCEO might not be the best route.

    You can get lucky with third party debt orders sometimes. If you choose the bank correctly, first the account would be frozen. Then you would have to go to a court hearing to determine what happens with the cash - if this person needs those funds to live and has lots of other debts the judge might not agree to release all of it to you.

    Also, I gather from the other thread that this person seems to be up to his eyeballs in debt - I could be wrong but it sounds unlikely that he will have a lot of cash just sitting in a current account.

    Bankruptcy sounds like it would cause him a lot of problems but it ain't cheap. The court fee for bankruptcy is 280 and you have to deposit 990 to cover the official receiver's costs (you usually get these back eventually).
    Originally posted by steampowered
    Thanks so much for the advice.

    There is someone I work with who lives next to his Mom. I know the income and expenditure states he has a lot of debt but he goes on regular holidays with his family numerous times a year.

    I've been told to serve a statutory demand which might put the frighteners on him but yeah, like you said, the bankruptcy would probably be my best option.

    This guy is sneaky and I wouldn't be surprised if all his savings and money are in his brother/sister/children's account.

    Thanks again for your assistance and advice.
    • steampowered
    • By steampowered 12th Aug 18, 1:35 PM
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    steampowered
    • #4
    • 12th Aug 18, 1:35 PM
    • #4
    • 12th Aug 18, 1:35 PM
    A statutory demand could be effective if coupled with a demand for higher payments.

    For example, you could send it with a covering letter saying that you require 1,000 a month (rather than a pitiful 100 a month) or you will proceed to make him bankrupt.
    • mimi1234
    • By mimi1234 21st Aug 18, 7:54 PM
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    mimi1234
    • #5
    • 21st Aug 18, 7:54 PM
    • #5
    • 21st Aug 18, 7:54 PM
    Just a quick question. With the statutory demand, I have downloaded the form and have filled most of it in. Does the amount he owes have to be exact? I'm just a bit confused with the interest.

    For example, say he owed me 10,000 at the start before I put in the CCJ. Then he agreed to paying me 100 a month but out of the 18 months, he skipped 8, so he still owes me 9,000. Do I just add the interest on to this or is there another way of doing this?

    I initially was going to forego the interest but seen as he is making me jump through the hoops, I am going to do the same.
    • Wiseguy
    • By Wiseguy 23rd Aug 18, 11:58 AM
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    Wiseguy
    • #6
    • 23rd Aug 18, 11:58 AM
    • #6
    • 23rd Aug 18, 11:58 AM
    Might be a bit late to the party but before you decide to go through the process of trying to make the guy bankrupt, I noticed that no consideration has been made regarding an application for the debtor to attend court and explain his current financial situation. This is known as a an Order for Information and is used by submitting the form N316.

    The purpose is to make enquiries as to the debtor's current financial status and any assets he/she may have in their possession. Last time I checked, the cost of this application is 50 so it is a cheap alternative and you can then ascertain their financial means in order to decide what enforcement route you wish to take. If the debtor refuses or fails to comply, then the debtor will be in contempt of court and it would usually be passed to a judge to consider making a committal order (i.e. send to prison) or that a civil bench arrest warrant may be ordered so that the debtor is arrested and brought before the court at the next available opportunity (only ever seen this happen once usually because they turn up eventually once they realise the seriousness of it).

    When you submit your application, a court hearing will be given and you have to personally serve on the debtor the notice at least 14 days before the date of the hearing. Best not to tip the debtor off too early as they might move assets around and you will have lost the advantage. Committal orders are very rarely applied so its unlikely a prison sentence will be given for breaching the order unless the debtor wilfully does it on multiple occasions.

    Links to the application form and guidance notes below if you are interested.

    EX324 Guidance Notes - https://www.moneyclaimsuk.co.uk/PDFForms/EX324.pdf
    Form N316 - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n316-application-for-order-that-debtor-attend-court-for-questioning
    Last edited by Wiseguy; 23-08-2018 at 12:01 PM.
    • mimi1234
    • By mimi1234 7th Sep 18, 5:46 PM
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    mimi1234
    • #7
    • 7th Sep 18, 5:46 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Sep 18, 5:46 PM
    Thanks all.

    Finally, a bit of luck. I've managed to track him down at his new address. I've done a search on land registry and it's in his name and some other woman. So I should probably get a charge on this property asap?

    Does anyone know how long this would take? I've seen the form online and it seems very easy to fill in so I shall get it done straight away.

    @wiseguy - this guy is a dirty low down snake. When he filled in an income and expenditure once I applied for a CCJ, he made out he was only earning 1000 a month and was even claiming tax credits. I know one of the businesses he runs is a family business and it is very successful (in my opinion I guess!) so I don't quite get how he earns so little and can claim tax credits etc unless they have a dodgy arrangement where most of the earnings go to his siblings and he gets bare minimum. Also, his fancy car and the other fancy car he had disappeared and were replaced by a clapped out old banger when the bailiffs told him they were popping round for a chat. This chap has been around the block it seems!

    Also, another question that arose in my mind - the business I intend to make bankrupt is in his own name on the companieshouse website. Would I still be able to go ahead with this is the debt is owed by an individual and not by the business? I know he will try and argue he has no money but I know that business rolls quite a bit in.

    At least I am glad I can finally put a charge on one of his houses. I know it's joint ownership but still!

    Have a blessed weekend all.
    • bris
    • By bris 7th Sep 18, 6:00 PM
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    bris
    • #8
    • 7th Sep 18, 6:00 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Sep 18, 6:00 PM
    You can only go after what he has, people like this tend to have nothing.


    What he has is usually in other peoples names so he can't be touched, this is the reason for the house etc.


    You will simply be throwing away good money after bad.


    As for the other house then the company owns this house not the director, any company assets can't be taken for an individuals debt.


    These people are clever and know how to play the system.


    How do you think you can make a company bankrupt for an individuals debt?
    • mimi1234
    • By mimi1234 9th Sep 18, 8:00 PM
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    mimi1234
    • #9
    • 9th Sep 18, 8:00 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Sep 18, 8:00 PM
    I agree with what you are saying. He lives the life of a celebrity, scooting around in fast cars and fancy clothes but according to his income and expenditure form he filled out in response to my CCJ, he has nothing.

    One house is in his wife (could be ex wife's) name and a child, the other house is in his name and another woman. It's a joint ownership so I will be going for a charge on that one. The amount he owes would be covered by the sale of half of the house.

    It was the solicitor who told me I should make his business bankrupt. He is the director of the company so I assumed this meant it was owned by him mostly? No? Maybe I was clutching at straws there.

    I am going to put the form for the charge on the property in the post tomorrow. Then I shall see what else I might be able to do.
    • steampowered
    • By steampowered 9th Sep 18, 8:10 PM
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    steampowered
    Just a quick question. With the statutory demand, I have downloaded the form and have filled most of it in. Does the amount he owes have to be exact? I'm just a bit confused with the interest.

    For example, say he owed me 10,000 at the start before I put in the CCJ. Then he agreed to paying me 100 a month but out of the 18 months, he skipped 8, so he still owes me 9,000. Do I just add the interest on to this or is there another way of doing this?

    I initially was going to forego the interest but seen as he is making me jump through the hoops, I am going to do the same.
    Originally posted by mimi1234
    Sorry, I only just saw this post.

    Check you are using the correct form. There is a specific one for use where you already have a CCJ: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-sd4-statutory-demand-under-section-2681a-of-the-insolvency-act-1986-debt-for-liquidated-sum-payable-immediately-following-a-judgment-or-ord

    Finally, a bit of luck. I've managed to track him down at his new address. I've done a search on land registry and it's in his name and some other woman. So I should probably get a charge on this property asap?
    Originally posted by mimi1234
    That's a spot of luck. Yes it sounds like getting a charging order ASAP is a good idea.

    Getting an interim charging order is very easy and pretty quick, and is usually done without giving prior warning to judgment debtor. The court will usually grant an interim charging order very quickly, then the defendant has a chance to object and a hearing is booked to determine whether the interim charging order should become a final charging order.

    He has the chance to object to the interim charging order being made final but as you have a CCJ it is difficult to see how he could object successfully. By the time he becomes aware of the interim charging order it will be too late for him to escape it by transferring his share of the property over to the girlfriend.

    It is very difficult to get an order for sale over the property where you are only getting a charging order against one of the joint owners of the property, so the reality is you are unlikely to be able to force an immediate sale to get your money. But at least when the property is sold you should hopefully get the money plus interest at that point, as the buyer's conveyancer will insist on it, so it is worth doing.

    Also, another question that arose in my mind - the business I intend to make bankrupt is in his own name on the companieshouse website. Would I still be able to go ahead with this is the debt is owed by an individual and not by the business? I know he will try and argue he has no money but I know that business rolls quite a bit in.
    I don't see why the business would be liable for this individual's personal debt. The company has separate legal personality from the individual.

    If you were to make the individual bankrupt, the shares he owns in this company (and therefore indirectly the cash in the company's bank account at that point) would be part of the assets distributed by the official receiver. However the shares may not have very much value at that point, and there might not be very much cash left in the business.
    Last edited by steampowered; 09-09-2018 at 8:15 PM.
    • mimi1234
    • By mimi1234 26th Sep 18, 1:02 PM
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    mimi1234
    Just an update. I've applied for the interim charging order. I had to work out the total amount owed, with interest, it's quite a large sum.

    Once I get the paperwork back, I am going to try and register it with the land registry and then further the process.

    Thanks for the advice re: making the business bankrupt. I guess it's not something I can do. The solicitor I spoke to told me it was doable, hence me wanting to go down that route.

    May I just ask if there are any organisations that might be able to advise me further with cheap fees or even free? I know the CAB are there but they have said they only help debtors and not creditors which I think is bizarre. I can't keep forking out on solicitors fees especially if their advice is incorrect. I know some of the posters on here have been tremendous with the advice they have given me but I'm just so cloudy in the brain at the moment what with a few family illnesses and what not. Most of the time I don't even know if I am coming or going!

    Thanks again.
    • mimi1234
    • By mimi1234 21st Oct 18, 9:13 PM
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    mimi1234
    The interim charging order has come through. Hallelujah.

    I've done some research and the house has no young children nor does it have any elderly people so will see what happens now. Hopefully they will make him sell it but it also depends on how many others have a charging order against him. By the way he does business, I wouldn't be surprised if there are LOADS!
    • pinkshoes
    • By pinkshoes 22nd Oct 18, 9:33 AM
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    pinkshoes
    Thanks for the update and well done for your perseverance!
    Should've = Should HAVE (not 'of')
    Would've = Would HAVE (not 'of')

    No, I am not perfect, but yes I do judge people on their use of basic English language. If you didn't know the above, then learn it! (If English is your second language, then you are forgiven!)
    • steampowered
    • By steampowered 22nd Oct 18, 1:13 PM
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    steampowered
    Very well done indeed.

    Download a copy of the official from the land registry, to make sure that your charging order has been correctly registered against the property.

    The charging order by itself won't force them to sell the property - but should mean you get paid with interest when the property is sold.
    • mimi1234
    • By mimi1234 24th Oct 18, 12:37 PM
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    mimi1234
    Thanks both. Met up with a friend who understands a bit about the law and completed the certificate of service and statement of costs etc. I will be posting it out today so hopefully I will be getting a final order soon.

    I know I am getting a bit excited but hopefully it will work and I will get my money back. Failing that, I will have to find other ways to enforce the debt.

    Thanks for the help, as always.
    • pelirocco
    • By pelirocco 24th Oct 18, 1:49 PM
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    pelirocco
    Just a quick question. With the statutory demand, I have downloaded the form and have filled most of it in. Does the amount he owes have to be exact? I'm just a bit confused with the interest.

    For example, say he owed me 10,000 at the start before I put in the CCJ. Then he agreed to paying me 100 a month but out of the 18 months, he skipped 8, so he still owes me 9,000. Do I just add the interest on to this or is there another way of doing this?

    I initially was going to forego the interest but seen as he is making me jump through the hoops, I am going to do the same.
    Originally posted by mimi1234

    I know you arent going down this route now , but as a warning you need to be very very sure this debt is provable before issuing a statutory demand , courts take a very dim view of what they class as spurious and vextatious claims and it can be very costly to you .
    Vuja De - the feeling you'll be here later
    • mimi1234
    • By mimi1234 25th Oct 18, 12:05 PM
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    mimi1234
    I know you arent going down this route now , but as a warning you need to be very very sure this debt is provable before issuing a statutory demand , courts take a very dim view of what they class as spurious and vextatious claims and it can be very costly to you .
    Originally posted by pelirocco
    I may do if this effort fails. What do you mean provable? He has admitted he owes me the amount when I had the CCJ granted.

    All the amounts I have worked out have also been checked. I used the correct rate for the interest and every other cost I have receipts for.

    I've all the paperwork from day one and I have a log of all the contact I have had with him also.
    • mimi1234
    • By mimi1234 3rd Nov 18, 8:49 PM
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    mimi1234
    So I sent off the paperwork to the debtor, it's been two weeks and I haven't heard a peep off him. Is that good or bad? Or would he contact the county claims court directly with regards to the interim charge being made final? 2 more weeks to go before the 28 days are up.
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