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  • FIRST POST
    • ScarletMarble
    • By ScarletMarble 11th Aug 18, 8:30 AM
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    ScarletMarble
    Cancelled operation - will employer pay?
    • #1
    • 11th Aug 18, 8:30 AM
    Cancelled operation - will employer pay? 11th Aug 18 at 8:30 AM
    I had a procedure cancelled earlier this week due to an admin error. Now its rescheduled for next week. I did have the following day off as hardly slept due to worry and upset the cancelled procedure did to me. Wouldn't been able to concentrate at work. The recovery time for post procedure is 2-2.5 weeks

    Now would my employer pay for me for the date of the cancelled op as its not my fault? I'm happy to take no pay the following day. Worried that my employer will treat this as a separate sickness - again not my fault.

    Got union membership which I will use if employer treats this as separate sickness
Page 1
    • discat11
    • By discat11 11th Aug 18, 8:39 AM
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    discat11
    • #2
    • 11th Aug 18, 8:39 AM
    • #2
    • 11th Aug 18, 8:39 AM
    Ask them -this really depends on the employers discretion.

    There isn't a statutory right if that is what you are asking?

    It isn't the employers fault either to be fair to them also.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 11th Aug 18, 9:23 AM
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    FBaby
    • #3
    • 11th Aug 18, 9:23 AM
    • #3
    • 11th Aug 18, 9:23 AM
    When you say you had the day off, do you mean you contact them, explained the situation and asked if you could take a day off? Did they agree? Did you ask if it would count as a day off your holiday entitlement?

    Or are you saying that you called in sick?
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 11th Aug 18, 9:35 AM
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    Undervalued
    • #4
    • 11th Aug 18, 9:35 AM
    • #4
    • 11th Aug 18, 9:35 AM
    Ask them -this really depends on the employers discretion.

    There isn't a statutory right if that is what you are asking?

    It isn't the employers fault either to be fair to them also.
    Originally posted by discat11
    Exactly!

    Why do some people feel their employer should "carry the can" for all misfortunes?

    This is a bit like the annual " I was late or couldn't get to work because of bad weather, will I still get paid".

    The majority of "decent" employers actually show far more flexibility than the law requires when employee experience "life situations".

    However it is worth remembering that, unless you have additional contractual rights, there is no entitlement to sick pay beyond SSP (if qualified) or any pay at all if you don't manage to get to work for some other reason. There is no legal entitlement to compassionate leave, regardless of the situation, and only very limited rights to short periods of unpaid leave in emergency situations involving dependants.
    • warby68
    • By warby68 11th Aug 18, 9:49 AM
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    warby68
    • #5
    • 11th Aug 18, 9:49 AM
    • #5
    • 11th Aug 18, 9:49 AM
    What did your employer say when you phoned in when the op was cancelled? Or didn't you and they assumed you'd had the op on Day 2 (latter wouldn't be great if now seeking concessions)

    I'd imagine a reasonable employer would 'forgive' the first day and roll it into the period when you do have the op so its all one sickness. Not sure about the second day at all. To my mind if the delay made you ill, that really is a different issue than time off for the op.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 11th Aug 18, 9:52 AM
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    getmore4less
    • #6
    • 11th Aug 18, 9:52 AM
    • #6
    • 11th Aug 18, 9:52 AM
    what was the advanced agreement for the day of the OP and recovery period?
    • Brynsam
    • By Brynsam 11th Aug 18, 10:11 AM
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    Brynsam
    • #7
    • 11th Aug 18, 10:11 AM
    • #7
    • 11th Aug 18, 10:11 AM
    Why do people ask questions here about how a third party will deal with something? Ask your employer; they are the only ones who can answer the question.

    Your reference to getting your union involves indicates you are squaring up for a fight before you even know if there's a battle (and if there is, you'll lose it if your grounds for combat are that your employer should be responsible for other people's mistakes).
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 11th Aug 18, 10:23 AM
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    sangie595
    • #8
    • 11th Aug 18, 10:23 AM
    • #8
    • 11th Aug 18, 10:23 AM
    Got union membership which I will use if employer treats this as separate sickness
    Originally posted by ScarletMarble
    Well since it is a separate sickness, then you'd be on a hiding to nothing. Your reason for absence had nothing at all to do with the reason you were supposed to be off. The day of the operation, there was no operation - you were not unfit for work and should have been in work therefore. You then had a second day off as well because you didn't sleep - nothing to do with having an operation or recovery. A you would now like more time off next week and bff subsequently for the operation which you didn't have this week, but which you still took two days off for. Those are separate absences for unrelated sickness. If your employer doesn't count it as that, be grateful. If they do, it's tough luck- they are entitled to.
    • Rosemary7391
    • By Rosemary7391 11th Aug 18, 10:39 AM
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    Rosemary7391
    • #9
    • 11th Aug 18, 10:39 AM
    • #9
    • 11th Aug 18, 10:39 AM
    Well since it is a separate sickness, then you'd be on a hiding to nothing. Your reason for absence had nothing at all to do with the reason you were supposed to be off. The day of the operation, there was no operation - you were not unfit for work and should have been in work therefore. You then had a second day off as well because you didn't sleep - nothing to do with having an operation or recovery. A you would now like more time off next week and bff subsequently for the operation which you didn't have this week, but which you still took two days off for. Those are separate absences for unrelated sickness. If your employer doesn't count it as that, be grateful. If they do, it's tough luck- they are entitled to.
    Originally posted by sangie595

    Just a thought about the bit in bold - I'm assuming it wasn't cancelled in advance, so presumably OP had not eaten etc and was at the hospital for at least part of the day? The following day is definitely separate but OP was asking about being paid for the first day.
    Slinkies 2018 Challenge - 0/80lb lost
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 11th Aug 18, 11:12 AM
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    sangie595
    Just a thought about the bit in bold - I'm assuming it wasn't cancelled in advance, so presumably OP had not eaten etc and was at the hospital for at least part of the day? The following day is definitely separate but OP was asking about being paid for the first day.
    Originally posted by Rosemary7391
    It doesn't matter. They were not unfit. People often fail to appreciate, and employers equally don't know or deliberately overlook, but actually there is no right to count an operation as sickness anyway - not all operations make you unfit. You certainly aren't unfit to work until such time as you start the operation. Not eating or being in a hospital does not count as being sick. So if the employer wanted to be as pedantic as the OP was considering being, then they could (a) mark that as not sick and (assuming the OP didn't phone in to say that they were not coming in and get permission) AWOL (potentially a disciplinary offence) and then (b) count the next day as another seperate absence! That's two absences for two days! One of which might be actionable by the employer.

    So this is probably a time to not look too closely at any gift horses that might appear. Being belligerent about rights you don't have can encourage the employer to look at their rights. They inevitably have more.
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 11th Aug 18, 12:58 PM
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    TELLIT01
    It's actually an interesting situation but one which can only be resolved by asking the employer. If the OP was sat in a hospital bed most of the day waiting for an operation which was then cancelled, there is no way they could have been at work. They must have had some form of illness or injury if they were to undergo surgery but were obviously living with the situation. I would think that a decent employer would accept the day of the operation as a day off sick. Personally, I wouldn't expect the employer to pay for the following day, but the OP has already indicated that to be their view as well.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 11th Aug 18, 1:51 PM
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    sangie595
    It's actually an interesting situation but one which can only be resolved by asking the employer. If the OP was sat in a hospital bed most of the day waiting for an operation which was then cancelled, there is no way they could have been at work. They must have had some form of illness or injury if they were to undergo surgery but were obviously living with the situation. I would think that a decent employer would accept the day of the operation as a day off sick. Personally, I wouldn't expect the employer to pay for the following day, but the OP has already indicated that to be their view as well.
    Originally posted by TELLIT01
    I agree that it is up to the employer, and not, as the OP appears to think, their right. But let me clarify one thing. Being sat in a hospital is not the same thing as being unfit for work. Otherwise all medical appointments would be sick leave. And they aren't. "Not being able to go to work" is not the same thing as "sick". So, for example, let's take that procedure you are having for piles. You are not unfit for work, so you may sit in the hospital all day - you have no right to call that "sick leave".

    In the OPs case, the thing that renders them unfit for work is (I am assuming) the actual procedure. Otherwise this would all be moot as they would be off sick already. So legally, if that procedure does not take place, they are not sick. They should, again technically, have phoned the employer and got permission to be off work "not sick", if you see what I mean. That would make the second day self certification for sickness. Now few employers are going to get antsy about a day here or there where they understand the circumstances. But what is almost certainly guaranteed to get their backs up is that attitude that it's a right and they'll get the union in if the employer doesn't do what they want.

    And that is my point. The employer hasn't actually done anything at all, never mind anything wrong, and the OPs attitude is to go in banging a drum about their rights. Rights they don't have. That is guaranteed to get up an employers nose...
    • rocketqueen
    • By rocketqueen 13th Aug 18, 6:13 PM
    • 109 Posts
    • 525 Thanks
    rocketqueen
    I had similar happen to me 2 weeks ago - operation was cancelled day before in my case. I was at work when I got the phone call and burst into tears, but after a cup of tea and 5 mins quiet time I went back to work as I was well enough to be at work before the phone call cancelling and nothing had changed in that sense after taking the call- but I completely get people handle things differently.

    My operation was scheduled for a Friday and due to not being able to say I was sick up until I had actually had the surgery, the day of the operation itself was going to be marked down as absent - manager authorised and the sick leave was to start the following day. I think my employer would have had something to say if id called in sick the day after the surgery that didn't happen.
    • custardy
    • By custardy 13th Aug 18, 6:19 PM
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    custardy
    Op hasnt bothered to come back so its all moot.
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 14th Aug 18, 12:07 AM
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    dori2o
    I actually disagree about the 'unfit for work' discussion for the day of the operation.

    Some people get very nervous about having operations, no matter how big/small they are.

    I've had my fair share over the years, and had an op cancelled earlier this year when I was scheduled to have Genicular nerve block injections in my knee.

    I'd gotten myself to the hospital only for it to be cancelled about an hour later.

    If I'd have set off to work after getting home I would have done just over half a days work.

    However, given the mental state I was in given the worry about the op, the fact I'd had no sleep, I felt sick, I was extremely upset, I advised my employer that I would not be attending that day despite the cancellation.

    Some people think that being 'fit for work' only applies to being physically fit.

    Some think that you cannot be unfit for work unless your leg/arm is hanging off, or you are at deaths door.

    Fact is that being unfit for work can be due to being mentally unfit.

    When it comes to work, being unfit because of a mental illness issue is just the same as being unfit because of a physical issue.

    It remains the case today that many people, and unfortunately many employers, refuse to acknowledge that mental illness is a serious issue. Too many reply with comments such as 'pull yourself together', or 'man up', or the awful 'get over yourself'.

    These comments do far more harm than good.

    It's time more was done to make people and businesses/employers understand the often devastating and misconstrued issues of mental illness.
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 14th Aug 18, 9:58 AM
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    Undervalued
    I actually disagree about the 'unfit for work' discussion for the day of the operation.

    Some people get very nervous about having operations, no matter how big/small they are.

    I've had my fair share over the years, and had an op cancelled earlier this year when I was scheduled to have Genicular nerve block injections in my knee.

    I'd gotten myself to the hospital only for it to be cancelled about an hour later.

    If I'd have set off to work after getting home I would have done just over half a days work.

    However, given the mental state I was in given the worry about the op, the fact I'd had no sleep, I felt sick, I was extremely upset, I advised my employer that I would not be attending that day despite the cancellation.

    Some people think that being 'fit for work' only applies to being physically fit.

    Some think that you cannot be unfit for work unless your leg/arm is hanging off, or you are at deaths door.

    Fact is that being unfit for work can be due to being mentally unfit.

    When it comes to work, being unfit because of a mental illness issue is just the same as being unfit because of a physical issue.

    It remains the case today that many people, and unfortunately many employers, refuse to acknowledge that mental illness is a serious issue. Too many reply with comments such as 'pull yourself together', or 'man up', or the awful 'get over yourself'.

    These comments do far more harm than good.

    It's time more was done to make people and businesses/employers understand the often devastating and misconstrued issues of mental illness.
    Originally posted by dori2o
    Whilst I fully understand the valid points you are making, the real issue here is to what extent the employer should "pick up the tab" for situations that are completely outside their control.

    In any case many employers would insist, quite lawfully, that a planned day procedure does not qualify for sick leave and should be booked as holiday.
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 14th Aug 18, 10:44 AM
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    dori2o
    Whilst I fully understand the valid points you are making, the real issue here is to what extent the employer should "pick up the tab" for situations that are completely outside their control.

    In any case many employers would insist, quite lawfully, that a planned day procedure does not qualify for sick leave and should be booked as holiday.
    Originally posted by Undervalued
    I suppose it depends on the policies in place and how much the employer values it's staff.

    I think most employers want a healthy workforce, and know/expect that from time to time someone may need time off to have an operation and recover.

    I think most good employers would allow/expect the employee to take sick leave and not holiday to cover the time off. Even its just SSP.

    The OP said 2.5 weeks recovery so it's not something minor that they were having done.

    When I had my ACL reconstructed I was off sick for 9 weeks for recovery/intensive physio treatment.

    However, when I had the snip, I arranged the op for a Friday and went back to work on the Monday.

    (I don't know why so many blokes make a fuss. It wasn't really painful at all).

    It also depends on whether the procedure is being performed to manage a condition that could likely be considered to be a disability within the definition used by the Equality Act.

    In these cases it may be 'reasonable' to give some additional time off to attend the hospital for treatment and operations. It's one of the examples given within the Equality Act: employers statutory code of practice, although it does not state that this time off has to be paid.

    Any procedures/treatments I have which are directly related to managing the problems with my leg (such as the Genicular nerve block injections I recently had done) are covered under the Equality Act and I'm allowed additional paid time off (upto a maximum amount).

    Obviously different employers would consider 'reasonable' differently, but it must be considered.
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 14th Aug 18, 11:29 AM
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    sangie595
    I suppose it depends on the policies in place and how much the employer values it's staff. How much an employer values their staff is irrelevant. The OP asked whether they would get paid, and whether it would be two absences or one, and said that if the employer didn't give them the "right" answer, then they'd bring in the union. The "right" answer is that legally the employer does not have to pay, and it's two absences. Anything better than that under policy is the employers choice. Valuing staff does not mean that you should always pay them when they want paying.

    I think most employers want a healthy workforce, and know/expect that from time to time someone may need time off to have an operation and recover. But that wasn't the question. Nobody said the employer doesn't know those things.

    I think most good employers would allow/expect the employee to take sick leave and not holiday to cover the time off. Even its just SSP. I work with some of the "best" employers going. And no, they wouldn't necessarily give sick leave. You cannot judge an employer by whether they allow sick leave for a hospital procedure. That term covers a multitude of situations, and not all of them would be sick leave eligible.

    The OP said 2.5 weeks recovery so it's not something minor that they were having done. You don't know that. One of my colleagues a few years ago had three weeks off after a hospital procedure. They were advised to do that by the consultant. To be fair, they didn't ask for sick leave, but they wouldn't have got it anyway. They weren't sick. The procedure was entirely elective and "medically unnecessary ".

    When I had my ACL reconstructed I was off sick for 9 weeks for recovery/intensive physio treatment. So what?

    However, when I had the snip, I arranged the op for a Friday and went back to work on the Monday. A medically unnecessary procedure. Why would that entitle someone to sick leave?

    (I don't know why so many blokes make a fuss. It wasn't really painful at all).

    It also depends on whether the procedure is being performed to manage a condition that could likely be considered to be a disability within the definition used by the Equality Act. No, it doesn't. What qualifies as sick leave and whether you are paid for it has nothing to do with disability.

    In these cases it may be 'reasonable' to give some additional time off to attend the hospital for treatment and operations. It's one of the examples given within the Equality Act: employers statutory code of practice, although it does not state that this time off has to be paid. It may be, not is. And again this is not relevant. The OP doesn't need additional time off. That wasn't ever the question.

    Any procedures/treatments I have which are directly related to managing the problems with my leg (such as the Genicular nerve block injections I recently had done) are covered under the Equality Act and I'm allowed additional paid time off (upto a maximum amount). [COLOR="da"darkred"] Which is something your employer has chosen to give. Not something that they must give.[/B][/COLOR]

    Obviously different employers would consider 'reasonable' differently, but it must be considered.
    Originally posted by dori2o
    Must be[U] considered[bU]. Not must be given. But none of this is remotely relevant to the OP. The employer has not refused sick leave. The OP asked whether they must give it - the answer is no, they do not have to, and what they do depends on policy; and does it count as two absences, to which the answer is that it may do and that is also up to the employers policy. Disability, if it even exists, is not relevant to either of those questions. The purpose of the Equality Act is to level the playing field, not to put people with disabilities in a better position.
    • marlot
    • By marlot 14th Aug 18, 1:49 PM
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    marlot
    ...that procedure you are having for piles.... may sit in the hospital all day...
    Originally posted by sangie595
    More likely to be standing
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 15th Aug 18, 10:20 PM
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    dori2o
    Must be[U] considered[bU]. Not must be given. But none of this is remotely relevant to the OP. The employer has not refused sick leave. The OP asked whether they must give it - the answer is no, they do not have to, and what they do depends on policy; and does it count as two absences, to which the answer is that it may do and that is also up to the employers policy. Disability, if it even exists, is not relevant to either of those questions. The purpose of the Equality Act is to level the playing field, not to put people with disabilities in a better position.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    We don't know whether disability is relevant or not as the OP has never responded. They may not even be aware of the EA given many employers never tell staff about it. Many times to prevent the employee from exercising their statutory rights.

    Just as I don't know disability etc is a factor, you don't know it isn't.

    If disability/long term health issue that has a significant impact on daily life is an issue then the OP might consider finding out what the employers policy is regarding absences/treatments etc.

    Unfortunately too many people are not provided the information about their statutory rights that offer them protection in the workplace.

    The more people are aware the better.
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
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