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  • FIRST POST
    • Mistyglaze
    • By Mistyglaze 10th Aug 18, 10:42 PM
    • 1Posts
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    Mistyglaze
    Repossession of house under S8
    • #1
    • 10th Aug 18, 10:42 PM
    Repossession of house under S8 10th Aug 18 at 10:42 PM
    Hi all,
    Due to a change in circumstances, I would like to return to my property that I have been renting out.
    I have contacted the estate agents and they said I can serve a s8 notice, but after reviewing posts on this forum I'm unsure whether that is correct.
    Any advice would be gratefully received.
    Misty
    Last edited by Mistyglaze; 13-08-2018 at 3:02 PM. Reason: Removing personally identifying info
Page 1
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 10th Aug 18, 10:53 PM
    • 3,707 Posts
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    Comms69
    • #2
    • 10th Aug 18, 10:53 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Aug 18, 10:53 PM
    Then it!!!8217;s in fixed term, which is why you can!!!8217;t use s.21.

    Now s.8 is discretionary grounds; you don!!!8217;t have any from what you e written.

    So then no you cannot evict your tenants- and depending on how long is left on the fixed term it could be 6-12 months.
    • jonnygee2
    • By jonnygee2 10th Aug 18, 11:12 PM
    • 158 Posts
    • 121 Thanks
    jonnygee2
    • #3
    • 10th Aug 18, 11:12 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Aug 18, 11:12 PM
    Try to remember, you own the house, but it's someone else's home, and that's what the law is protecting. It's unreasonable to expect that, if you have signed a contract to let a house out for 6 months to be someone else's home, you can go back to it. Have you considered renting nearby>

    One certainty - you can't serve Section 8 notice for the reasons above. Suprised (but not overly) that your EA couldn't even find it in themselves to do a two minute google search on what a section 8 notice is before advising you.
    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 11th Aug 18, 12:17 AM
    • 4,719 Posts
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    Cakeguts
    • #4
    • 11th Aug 18, 12:17 AM
    • #4
    • 11th Aug 18, 12:17 AM
    If you have signed a fix term tenancy and there is no break clause you cannot get the property back until after the 6 months has finished. You will have to rent somewhere yourself.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 11th Aug 18, 1:05 AM
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    G_M
    • #5
    • 11th Aug 18, 1:05 AM
    • #5
    • 11th Aug 18, 1:05 AM
    ......I'm unsure whether the tenancy is in fixed term as we have been extending it by 6m at a time.
    Originally posted by Mistyglaze
    This makes no sense.

    a) how can you possibly be self-managing your tenancy and not know what kind of tenancy it is?
    b) if you have " been extending it by 6m at a time" (I assume - '6 months'?), then it must be in a fixed term.

    1) when did you last extend the tenancy? What was the start date and was it for exactly 6 months?

    You can serve a S21 Notice now to end the tenancy on/after the expiry date of the current fixed term. Make sure the S21 Notice is correct/valid though as it's easy to get wrong. See
    S21 checklist (Is a S21 valid?)

    2) you can serve a S8 Notice at any time, based on one (or more) of the 17 'grounds' - ie reasons for eviction during a fixed term. See the list here:
    Schedule 2 (17 S8 Grounds a LL can use)

    See also:

    * Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?
    Last edited by G_M; 11-08-2018 at 1:07 AM.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 12th Aug 18, 5:32 AM
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    G_M
    • #6
    • 12th Aug 18, 5:32 AM
    • #6
    • 12th Aug 18, 5:32 AM
    You are looking at ground 1 yes?
    (Schedule 2 (17 S8 Grounds a LL can use)

    But you have not quoted it in full:

    Ground 1

    Not later than the beginning of the tenancy the landlord gave notice in writing to the tenant that possession might be recovered on this ground or the court is of the opinion that it is just and equitable to dispense with the requirement of notice and (in either case);

    (a)at some time before the beginning of the tenancy, the landlord who is seeking possession or, in the case of joint landlords seeking possession, at least one of them occupied the dwelling-house as his only or principal home; or

    (b)the landlord who is seeking possession or, in the case of joint landlords seeking possession, at least one of them requires the dwelling-house as [F1his, his spouse's or his civil partner's] only or principal home and neither the landlord (or, in the case of joint landlords, any one of them) nor any other person who, as landlord, derived title under the landlord who gave the notice mentioned above acquired the reversion on the tenancy for money or money's worth.
    So

    1) I suspect you actually wish to use a) above, not b) (unless you derived Title from a previous landlord)

    2) you can only rely on a) or b) above if you complied with the section I've underlined.

    3) if you did not comply with that, the court has some discretion ("the court is of the opinion that it is just and equitable") but to be honest it is very rare for that to happen.
    Last edited by G_M; 12-08-2018 at 5:40 AM.
    • haras_nosirrah
    • By haras_nosirrah 12th Aug 18, 6:44 AM
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    haras_nosirrah
    • #7
    • 12th Aug 18, 6:44 AM
    • #7
    • 12th Aug 18, 6:44 AM
    Rent somewhere yourself for 6 months and give notice for them to move out 25th Jan. No one is going to move out on Christmas day and I think it would be unreasonable to expect them to do so.
    • cjdavies
    • By cjdavies 12th Aug 18, 9:20 AM
    • 3,460 Posts
    • 3,701 Thanks
    cjdavies
    • #8
    • 12th Aug 18, 9:20 AM
    • #8
    • 12th Aug 18, 9:20 AM
    Rent somewhere yourself for 6 months and give notice for them to move out 25th Jan. No one is going to move out on Christmas day and I think it would be unreasonable to expect them to do so.
    Originally posted by haras_nosirrah
    However the tenets could stay after whatever notice OP gives as only a court can evict.

    OP runs the risk of double rent but giving notice to their landlord if they don't leave themselves.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/apgb/Geo2/11/19/section/18

    https://www.landlordlawblog.co.uk/2009/12/01/ancient-law-may-help-landlords/
    • unforeseen
    • By unforeseen 12th Aug 18, 10:47 AM
    • 2,860 Posts
    • 3,689 Thanks
    unforeseen
    • #9
    • 12th Aug 18, 10:47 AM
    • #9
    • 12th Aug 18, 10:47 AM
    This is a sticky situation isn't it. I am fully appreciative that no one would move out on Christmas Day, nor would I insist upon them doing that. I'm not a monster!

    I'm glad I put this on here as I am wondering about the quality of the professional advice I have received.

    So if a s8 does not apply, because I didn't give them that prior warning (as this was not the intention) before they moved in), am I able to give them a s21 notice that has the rest of their tenancy as notice (or a notice that I won't be extending the agreement) in the hope that they would likely want to be moved and settled before Christmas?

    NB I don't think they would find it difficult to find a new place to live, there are two properties round the corner both in much better condition (new builds) for slightly less money than they are paying now.
    Originally posted by Mistyglaze
    Rent one of those and leave the tenant where they are?
    • cjdavies
    • By cjdavies 12th Aug 18, 10:52 AM
    • 3,460 Posts
    • 3,701 Thanks
    cjdavies
    NB I don't think they would find it difficult to find a new place to live, there are two properties round the corner both in much better condition (new builds) for slightly less money than they are paying now.
    Originally posted by Mistyglaze
    Let's say you issue 2 months notice, tenant straight away finds the above and is accepted, can move within 2 weeks (never know maybe possible), would you allow them to leave earlier without paying further rent up until X date?
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 12th Aug 18, 11:54 AM
    • 3,707 Posts
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    Comms69
    I'm not sure how this info would help you form advice but yes, of course, that would be ideal as I have one months notice where I am.
    Originally posted by Mistyglaze
    Because the tenant doesnít have to leave as you know- so being flexible is a good bargaining tool for many tenants.
    • haras_nosirrah
    • By haras_nosirrah 12th Aug 18, 11:55 AM
    • 1,523 Posts
    • 2,799 Thanks
    haras_nosirrah
    However the tenets could stay after whatever notice OP gives as only a court can evict.

    OP runs the risk of double rent but giving notice to their landlord if they don't leave themselves.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/apgb/Geo2/11/19/section/18

    https://www.landlordlawblog.co.uk/2009/12/01/ancient-law-may-help-landlords/
    Originally posted by cjdavies
    I know the tenants don't have to leave

    If they get a 6 month let now then that gives until feb so if they give their tenants notice for 25th jan they they should know if they move out before the op is in a position of having to move out of their rental. Don't hand your own notice in until the tenants have moved out to avoid the double rent scenario
    • elsien
    • By elsien 12th Aug 18, 4:54 PM
    • 16,898 Posts
    • 42,667 Thanks
    elsien
    I was sure it was fixed term until EA advised we could issue 2 months notice. They have all documents/contracts at their disposal while pulling together their advice.
    The tenancy is due to end 25th December 2018.

    I am considering all options, and this is just one.
    Originally posted by Mistyglaze
    Do you not have your own copies of these? On what grounds specificlly are they suggesting you can give 2 months notice if it's a fixed term contract?
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 12th Aug 18, 7:10 PM
    • 44,992 Posts
    • 53,615 Thanks
    G_M
    .......

    So if a s8 does not apply, because I didn't give them that prior warning (as this was not the intention) before they moved in), am I able to give them a s21 notice that has the rest of their tenancy as notice (or a notice that I won't be extending the agreement) in the hope that they would likely want to be moved and settled before Christmas?
    Originally posted by Mistyglaze
    Sigh! Already answered.


    See my post 5 above.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 12th Aug 18, 9:57 PM
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    G_M
    ....

    They're email is as below in response to my phone call asking for advice about terminating the contract:

    "I have had a look into this and we can serve a section 8, schedule to grounds 1, notice to quit. (recovery of possession) Which is a minimum 2 months notice and can be served any time.

    We can do this for £150 inc VAT and to include the outgoing inspection and dealings with deposit.

    If you wanted to let them know first just let us know and then we will serve the notice."

    I called the day after receipt of above to confirm what a s8 was and queried whether we could use this as we're in a fixed term contract and they reaffirmed their email.
    Originally posted by Mistyglaze
    As already explained, they are right that a S8 ground 1 can be served during the fixed term.


    As for whether it would succeed in court, we have already discussed the wording of the ground in question, what it means and the conditions for it to succeed.


    Did you, or they, serve "notice in writing to the tenant that possession might be recovered on this ground" "Not later than the beginning of the tenancy"?


    It's a simple yes/no question but is fundamental to whether a S8 ground 1 would succeed, or be thrown out by the judge.
    • franklee
    • By franklee 12th Aug 18, 10:41 PM
    • 3,724 Posts
    • 4,012 Thanks
    franklee
    No, we did not have the foresight to serve that notice in writing or verbally before the start of the tenancy.
    Originally posted by Mistyglaze
    Have you checked with the letting agent? They may do it as routine. Or may be in the tenancy agreement if that was given in advance.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 12th Aug 18, 10:50 PM
    • 44,992 Posts
    • 53,615 Thanks
    G_M
    No, we did not have the foresight to serve that notice in writing or verbally before the start of the tenancy.
    Originally posted by Mistyglaze
    Then if you serve a S8 gd 1 you will be dependent on convincing the judge "that it is just and equitable to dispense with the requirement of notice".


    Let us know what argument you put forward and how the judge responds.

    Bear in mind that judges generally don't like making innocent tenants homeless mid-tenancy........!
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