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    • consumer23
    • By consumer23 10th Aug 18, 2:23 PM
    • 31Posts
    • 3Thanks
    consumer23
    Should I stop paying my rent?
    • #1
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:23 PM
    Should I stop paying my rent? 10th Aug 18 at 2:23 PM
    I am renting a room off a sub letter. The sub letter has received notification from the landlord to vacate the property due to the non payment of rent (He owes the landlord 5,500 over the last 18 months). The sub letter is unaware that I know this. Should I still pay the rent if the sub letter is just pocketing it himself? After all the bailiffs could turn up at any point and throw us all out so any rent I pay could be lost (and due to the financial difficulty my sub letter is in, I'm unlikely to see my deposit again). The sub letter has not told me about the landlords intentions but still asks for the rent. I can't tell the sub letter that I know because he will know that I have been reading his mail (I could see through the thin envelope what was inside without opening it - aided by the use of a torch). As far as I understand this is not illegal, only when you open someone elses mail is it illegal.

    Should I carry on paying the rent? Should I tell him I'm not paying due to the letter he has received, or should I stop paying and come up with a financial hardship excuse of myself? or something else?
Page 1
    • HampshireH
    • By HampshireH 10th Aug 18, 2:27 PM
    • 1,145 Posts
    • 1,369 Thanks
    HampshireH
    • #2
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:27 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:27 PM
    Do you mean you sub let from the tenant of a landlord

    Or...

    The tenant sub lets the property and you rent off the "Sub letter"

    Either way I would suggest house hunting. It isn't going to end well.

    Your contract with your LL is irrelevant to the one your LL has with their LL as is what he does with the money you give him
    • need an answer
    • By need an answer 10th Aug 18, 2:32 PM
    • 1,017 Posts
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    need an answer
    • #3
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:32 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:32 PM
    At some point I believe you will no longer be able to call that place home...at what point you decide to stop paying rent is your decision, but whilst you continue to pay money to a "middle " person you could well be wasting it and certainly wont be gaining anything by way of being able to stay in the property longer.


    You are not paying rent to the person who is the decision maker.
    in S 42 T 64 F 66
    out S 60 T 69 F 78
    2017 -32
    • HampshireH
    • By HampshireH 10th Aug 18, 2:38 PM
    • 1,145 Posts
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    HampshireH
    • #4
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:38 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:38 PM
    At some point I believe you will no longer be able to call that place home...at what point you decide to stop paying rent is your decision, but whilst you continue to pay money to a "middle " person you could well be wasting it and certainly wont be gaining anything by way of being able to stay in the property longer.


    You are not paying rent to the person who is the decision maker.
    Originally posted by need an answer
    So in effect he has been wasting it since the day he moved in. Who says his LL (middle man) ever intended to use the money to pay the rent? He could be using it for anything. It's irrelevant.

    What is relevant is that the OP is unlikely to have the benefit of a room for much longer.
    • PasturesNew
    • By PasturesNew 10th Aug 18, 2:43 PM
    • 65,254 Posts
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    PasturesNew
    • #5
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:43 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:43 PM
    Pay your rent ... maybe "just in time" drips and drabs to prevent paying, say, a whole month, only to find yourself penniless and on the streets the next day - but I'd leave if I were you.

    There's no trust ... and it'd be bl00dy inconvenient if you were out all day and evening and arrived back at midnight to find a note on the door from bailiffs and you can't get your stuff until the following week.

    Find yourself somewhere else to live, it'll be easier in the medium term.
    • need an answer
    • By need an answer 10th Aug 18, 2:47 PM
    • 1,017 Posts
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    need an answer
    • #6
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:47 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:47 PM
    Do you have a tenancy agreement?
    in S 42 T 64 F 66
    out S 60 T 69 F 78
    2017 -32
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 10th Aug 18, 2:49 PM
    • 5,861 Posts
    • 6,134 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #7
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:49 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:49 PM
    I am renting a room off a sub letter. The sub letter has received notification from the landlord to vacate the property due to the non payment of rent (He owes the landlord 5,500 over the last 18 months). The sub letter is unaware that I know this. Should I still pay the rent if the sub letter is just pocketing it himself? - That's his right, nothing to do with you. After all the bailiffs could turn up at any point and throw us all out so any rent I pay could be lost (and due to the financial difficulty my sub letter is in, I'm unlikely to see my deposit again). - indeed. The bailiffs wont turn up for a while yet though, if it's just a notice at the minute you've got time The sub letter has not told me about the landlords intentions but still asks for the rent. - you still owe him rent... I can't tell the sub letter that I know because he will know that I have been reading his mail (I could see through the thin envelope what was inside without opening it - aided by the use of a torch). As far as I understand this is not illegal, only when you open someone elses mail is it illegal. - it's not illegal to open someone elses mail.

    Should I carry on paying the rent? Should I tell him I'm not paying due to the letter he has received, or should I stop paying and come up with a financial hardship excuse of myself? or something else?
    Originally posted by consumer23
    I'd suggest you talk to him about it. At the end of the day you have very few rights and can be evicted in short notice. May as well be upfront about it and see what he says,
    • sal_III
    • By sal_III 10th Aug 18, 4:28 PM
    • 670 Posts
    • 681 Thanks
    sal_III
    • #8
    • 10th Aug 18, 4:28 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Aug 18, 4:28 PM
    Your first step would be to find a new place to live, as the bailiffs can be coming any day and you have no recourse if they arrive with and possession order in hand.

    Then have a talk with whoever your tenancy agreement is with and let him know, you have found out that he is not the owner and ask him to provide a copy of the upstream tenancy agreement to prove he has rights to sublet (most of the tenancy agreement explicitly forbid subletting). Don't mention you know about the rent arrears on his end yet.

    If he really had the right to sublet, you still owe him rent, regardless whether he is "passing it on" to the property owner. At that point let him know you are a aware of the rent arrears on his part, don't tell him how you know, just that you know. And make provisions to pay him rent on a weekly basis at the most. Best case scenario tell him that you are moving out in X days/weeks and he can deduct the rent due from your deposit (which you extremely unlikely to see back otherwise, assume it's not protected)

    If he can't prove to you he has the right to sublet i don't think you owe him anything as the agreement between you was in bad faith on his part.

    Going forward, learn from this lesson and first, never rent from someone who has no right to let the property and never let the LL off the hook for not protecting your deposit.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 10th Aug 18, 4:31 PM
    • 5,861 Posts
    • 6,134 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #9
    • 10th Aug 18, 4:31 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Aug 18, 4:31 PM
    Your first step would be to find a new place to live, as the bailiffs can be coming any day and you have no recourse if they arrive with and possession order in hand.

    Then have a talk with whoever your tenancy agreement - lodgers agreement. is with and let him know, you have found out that he is not the owner and ask him to provide a copy of the upstream tenancy agreement to prove he has rights to sublet- having a lodger is not subletting (most of the tenancy agreement explicitly forbid subletting). Don't mention you know about the rent arrears on his end yet.

    If he really had the right to sublet, you still owe him rent, regardless whether he is "passing it on" to the property owner. - he owes him rent regardless. At that point let him know you are a aware of the rent arrears on his part, don't tell him how you know, just that you know. And make provisions to pay him rent on a weekly basis at the most. - that would likely get him evicted with no notice. Best case scenario tell him that you are moving out in X days/weeks and he can deduct the rent due from your deposit (which you extremely unlikely to see back otherwise, assume it's not protected) - it doesn't need to be protected

    If he can't prove to you he has the right to sublet i don't think you owe him anything as the agreement between you was in bad faith on his part. - you're wrong, for many reasons

    Going forward, learn from this lesson and first, never rent from someone who has no right to let the property and never let the LL off the hook for not protecting your deposit.
    Originally posted by sal_III
    there is a right to rent out a room / get a lodger.
    • sal_III
    • By sal_III 10th Aug 18, 4:40 PM
    • 670 Posts
    • 681 Thanks
    sal_III
    there is a right to rent out a room / get a lodger.
    Originally posted by Comms69
    I'm sorry, do you have a copy of the master tenancy agreement to know whether it allows for lodgers? Or what type the OP agreement is t begin with.
    • diggingdude
    • By diggingdude 10th Aug 18, 4:41 PM
    • 457 Posts
    • 599 Thanks
    diggingdude
    Personally I would be tempted to speak directly to who the rent is owed to and find out where you stand, I wouldn't trust the person you are renting from to show you a true tenancy agreement etc
    House Deposit - Target 20000 April 2019
    Current Savings - 10225 13121.22 14621.22 16021 1729615171 15971 16983
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 10th Aug 18, 4:49 PM
    • 5,861 Posts
    • 6,134 Thanks
    Comms69
    I'm sorry, do you have a copy of the master tenancy agreement to know whether it allows for lodgers? Or what type the OP agreement is t begin with.
    Originally posted by sal_III


    I don't need one. The tenant has exclusive use of the property. They can get a lodger if they wish. Lodgers are excluded occupiers, like any other guest.


    The OPs agreement is unlikely to make a different, they are an excluded occupier.


    Instead of arguing research it.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 10th Aug 18, 4:50 PM
    • 5,861 Posts
    • 6,134 Thanks
    Comms69
    Personally I would be tempted to speak directly to who the rent is owed to and find out where you stand, I wouldn't trust the person you are renting from to show you a true tenancy agreement etc
    Originally posted by diggingdude
    The rent is owed to the tenant.


    Not sure why this is so difficult to grasp.


    You wouldn't contact the mortgage lender and make payments directly to them...
    • sal_III
    • By sal_III 10th Aug 18, 5:11 PM
    • 670 Posts
    • 681 Thanks
    sal_III
    I don't need one. The tenant has exclusive use of the property. They can get a lodger if they wish. Lodgers are excluded occupiers, like any other guest.


    The OPs agreement is unlikely to make a different, they are an excluded occupier.


    Instead of arguing research it.
    Originally posted by Comms69
    I did:
    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/housing/renting-a-home/subletting-and-lodging/lodging/rights-of-tenants-to-take-in-a-lodger/
    What rights do assured and assured shorthold tenants have to take in a lodger?
    If you are an assured or assured shorthold tenant, you should check your tenancy agreement. It may allow you to have a lodger, allow it on certain conditions, or forbid it completely.
    • consumer23
    • By consumer23 10th Aug 18, 5:13 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    consumer23
    @hampshirehhe tenant sub lets the property and you rent off the "Sub letter" - yes
    @need an answer: no, I have no tenancy agreement.
    @sal_3: I am not sure the owners care if tenant subletting is doing this or not. They are aware I live there but so do the family of the sub letting tenant. They might think I'm a part of subletters family they might not. In all honesty I think they just want the rent for the whole property each month.

    I was thinking of contacting the Landlord to see if they can spare evicting me as I have been and would continue to be a paying tenant.
    • consumer23
    • By consumer23 10th Aug 18, 5:16 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    consumer23
    The other thing I forgot to mention was that the tenant I am submitting off is on holiday and has not read the letter yet. I am waiting to see how he reacts to it upon his return
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 10th Aug 18, 5:19 PM
    • 5,861 Posts
    • 6,134 Thanks
    Comms69


    right, and? None of that changes the position that a tenant can get a lodger. The LL may decide to take action against him or her for breach of tenancy, but that has NO BEARING on the tenant / lodger agreement.


    It's not illegal to take a lodger, no matter what your tenancy says.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 10th Aug 18, 5:20 PM
    • 5,861 Posts
    • 6,134 Thanks
    Comms69
    @hampshirehhe tenant sub lets the property and you rent off the "Sub letter" - yes
    @need an answer: no, I have no tenancy agreement.
    @sal_3: I am not sure the owners care if tenant subletting is doing this or not. They are aware I live there but so do the family of the sub letting tenant. They might think I'm a part of subletters family they might not. In all honesty I think they just want the rent for the whole property each month.

    I was thinking of contacting the Landlord to see if they can spare evicting me as I have been and would continue to be a paying tenant.
    Originally posted by consumer23

    Does he live with you? If so, he is not subletting. Since you are expecting him back i'll assume he lives there.


    You have a verbal agreement.


    By all means contact them and see if you can take over the tenancy once the tenant is evicted.
    • InterestedParty2018
    • By InterestedParty2018 10th Sep 18, 11:02 AM
    • 129 Posts
    • 73 Thanks
    InterestedParty2018
    Do you want to move, or do you want to stay?

    You will have rights to protect the roof over your head, but do you really want to be in that environment?

    Move on, get somewhere with your own tenancy agreement directly with a landlord.

    FYI - whilst your landlord's obligation to pay their landlord rent is not being fulfilled, this has nothing to do with you. With proof of ownership (belongings), the bailiffs will not take your personal items, but do you really want all this hassle?
    • G_M
    • By G_M 10th Sep 18, 11:51 AM
    • 46,167 Posts
    • 55,879 Thanks
    G_M
    It's not clear, but I believe the term 'sub letter' is inaccurate. My understanding is that

    A owns a property and lets it to B (his tenant).
    B has a lodger C (the OP). B is C's landlord.
    C is an 'excluded occupier' with little protection and few rights.

    Correct or not?

    No one is 'sub letting' (except perhaps B in a loose sense by having a lodger) but no sub-tenancy is created.

    (or is there a 4th party who is genuinely sub-letting?)

    A can and will evict B for rent arrears soon. When B is evicted, C will be evicted too.

    Whether in the meantime C continues to pay rent to B is a choice:
    * what B does (or does not) do with C's rent is irrelevant to the contract between B & C. If C stops paying rent, B is likely to evict him.
    * if C continues to pay rent, and B & C are both evicted by A, C's rent will likely be lost

    So C has 3 choices:
    1) find somewhere else and move asap, telling B to keep the deposit to cover the last week/months rent
    2) stop paying B the rent and get evicted
    3) speak to A (the owner) and try to negotiate a brand new AST in C's sole name, to commence as soon as A evicts B

    4) bury head in sand and do nothing
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