Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • rbz5416
    • By rbz5416 10th Aug 18, 12:26 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 0Thanks
    rbz5416
    Joint UK Bank Account With USA Resident
    • #1
    • 10th Aug 18, 12:26 PM
    Joint UK Bank Account With USA Resident 10th Aug 18 at 12:26 PM
    I'm looking to open a joint account shared with my sister, who is permanently resident in the USA. I currently hold accounts with Nationwide & Halifax, both of whom nearly fainted at the idea before ruling it out. Barclays & HSBC seem to offer international accounts that may do the job (I'm awaiting confirmation) but Barclays require a maintained balance of 25k & HSBC 60k.

    The account will operate solely in the UK for sterling receipts & payments. But I need my sister to be able to continue to administer the account via online banking in the event of my death, without getting involved in POA or Deputyship.

    Does anyone here have such an arrangement & can recommend a provider?
Page 1
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 10th Aug 18, 12:36 PM
    • 7,842 Posts
    • 8,657 Thanks
    eskbanker
    • #2
    • 10th Aug 18, 12:36 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Aug 18, 12:36 PM
    I'm not aware of UK banks offering (access to) accounts for US residents, but perhaps you could expand on what you're ultimately trying to achieve, i.e. in the event of your death, what's the significance of the desire to keep the same account going?

    Accepting that that's not what you're actually asking, it may be that someone can contribute alternative ways of achieving the equivalent end result....
    • rbz5416
    • By rbz5416 10th Aug 18, 1:01 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    rbz5416
    • #3
    • 10th Aug 18, 1:01 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Aug 18, 1:01 PM
    perhaps you could expand on what you're ultimately trying to achieve, i.e. in the event of your death, what's the significance of the desire to keep the same account going?
    Originally posted by eskbanker
    It's actually funds I hold under POA for my mother. When an attorney dies the POA dies also & cannot be bequeathed to a next of kin or anyone else in a will. So should I die before my mother, my sister would have to start from scratch by applying to become her Deputy.

    That seems to be a lengthy & expensive route for someone based in the UK. I would imagine it to be a nightmare for someone not resident here. Even if she was granted Deputyship, I know from my own experience how problematic it is dealing with financial institutions who always require sight of the the original court paperwork or certified copies. Can you imagine the scope for delay & potential loss of bits of paper flying backwards & forwards across the Atlantic?

    So as a side issue, anyone setting up a Lasting Power of Attorney needs to ensure that they've thought through the chain of command. I was backup to my Dad but Mum never updated hers when he died.
    • gingercordial
    • By gingercordial 10th Aug 18, 1:30 PM
    • 1,186 Posts
    • 1,231 Thanks
    gingercordial
    • #4
    • 10th Aug 18, 1:30 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Aug 18, 1:30 PM
    It won't help you but may alleviate (or redirect) your frustration if you understand why most banks are reluctant to do this. There are US tax rules called "FATCA" which require foreign banks to report to the IRS about the activities of any US citizens which hold bank accounts with them. Some banks have made the decision that they do not want to be involved in this process at all (it is a lot of admin and potential penalties) and so their policy is that they will not give accounts to US citizens.

    This will be why Halifax and Nationwide did not want to do this at all - it is not their fault but all down to the IRS rules. You need the kind of bank that has US operations and so has resigned itself to doing the reporting anyway. HSBC might work, but also try the likes of Citibank. However as you have also found they might only offer it to high-value customers.
    • 18cc
    • By 18cc 10th Aug 18, 1:45 PM
    • 676 Posts
    • 449 Thanks
    18cc
    • #5
    • 10th Aug 18, 1:45 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Aug 18, 1:45 PM
    no idea if this is feasible but could you move the funds to isa and open a joint account there? oe no fatca problems
    • colsten
    • By colsten 10th Aug 18, 2:08 PM
    • 9,108 Posts
    • 7,942 Thanks
    colsten
    • #6
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:08 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:08 PM
    no idea if this is feasible but could you move the funds to isa and open a joint account there? oe no fatca problems
    Originally posted by 18cc
    The US, like any other country, doesn't recognise ISAs. As a US citizen resident anywhere in the world (and may be even as a non-US citizen but a US resident), you have to report any and all your worldwide assets to the IRS, and they'll tax you according to IRS rules, and any double-taxation rules. I am not aware that the latter would exempt ISAs.
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 10th Aug 18, 2:15 PM
    • 7,842 Posts
    • 8,657 Thanks
    eskbanker
    • #7
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:15 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:15 PM
    The US, like any other country, doesn't recognise ISAs. As a US citizen resident anywhere in the world (and may be even as a non-US citizen but a US resident), you have to report any and all your worldwide assets to the IRS, and they'll tax you according to IRS rules, and any double-taxation rules. I am not aware that the latter would exempt ISAs.
    Originally posted by colsten
    I was thinking the same thing but suspect that 'isa' was a typo and that poster actually meant 'usa', which makes slightly more sense, albeit still not a particularly viable solution....
    • colsten
    • By colsten 10th Aug 18, 2:37 PM
    • 9,108 Posts
    • 7,942 Thanks
    colsten
    • #8
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:37 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:37 PM
    I was thinking the same thing but suspect that 'isa' was a typo and that poster actually meant 'usa', which makes slightly more sense, albeit still not a particularly viable solution....
    Originally posted by eskbanker
    Oh right, lol, I probably misread. Agree, it's unlikely to be more viable, and any US account would naturally be subject to FATCA.

    What could be an option is a joint account offshore, e.g. in the Channel Islands. Such an account would still be subject to FATCA rules though and the offshore banks might also shy away. I would also enquire with HSBC.

    Good FATCA document: https://www.fatca.hsbc.com/~/media/fatca/pdfs/middle%20east%20and%20africa/fatca-rbwm-faq-mena-en.pdf
    • 18cc
    • By 18cc 10th Aug 18, 2:38 PM
    • 676 Posts
    • 449 Thanks
    18cc
    • #9
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:38 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Aug 18, 2:38 PM
    yes sorry meant usa ie have the sister control the funds there
    • 18cc
    • By 18cc 10th Aug 18, 2:41 PM
    • 676 Posts
    • 449 Thanks
    18cc
    My post probably wasn't clear the problem with having the funds in this country is having a US person on the account is almost impossible because of the fatca rules meaning banks are very reluctant to allow it

    however if you move the funds to the USA and open a US bank account then there presumably will not be the same problem having an UK signatory on the account our tax rules are little less onerous
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 10th Aug 18, 2:47 PM
    • 7,842 Posts
    • 8,657 Thanks
    eskbanker
    I need my sister to be able to continue to administer the account via online banking in the event of my death, without getting involved in POA or Deputyship.
    Originally posted by rbz5416
    Surely in the event of you predeceasing your mother, your sister would need to formally acquire the legal right to look after mum's finances anyway? I get that immediate and unfettered access to funds would be convenient initially but wouldn't see that as being sustainable, so would have thought that, bureaucratic though it is, lining up the necessary deputyship or POA paperwork would be easier if done at leisure now rather than in a hurry later?

    You mention that it's "funds I hold under POA for my mother" but they're presumably in mum's name to keep things straight re ownership, taxation, etc? Just thinking through the implications of the above FATCA references, i.e. sister potentially being liable for taxation on income from the money by virtue of being named on a joint account, and obviously there are tax matters on this side of the pond too....
    • rbz5416
    • By rbz5416 10th Aug 18, 3:46 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    rbz5416
    Thanks for the input, as I suspected it looks like we're fubar'd at every turn.

    Having the funds in the USA is no use as it's live current accounts with regular receipts & payments. SWIFT & exchange rate fees would be astronomic. Off the top of my head I think a single SWIFT payment costs in the region of 20.

    I've given up with HSBC as my initial email to International Accounts (linked from the UK site) said "We don't deal with the UK." So I rang the UK number to be put through to someone in the Philippines who also doesn't deal with the UK!

    I looked at Citibank & Q1 was "Do you have 150k to deposit?"

    As I said previously, I can't pass my POA on so that route is dead. You also can't apply for deferred Deputyship so if my sister applied now, she would have to take control now, which brings us back to the problem of a US resident operating a UK account. When I say "now" I'm lead to believe that it takes several months, so potentially a period of bills not being paid.

    Yes the funds are in Mum's name so there are indeed implications there. It's a case of trying to find the path of least resistance.
    It may just come down to giving my sister the passwords to the accounts...
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 10th Aug 18, 4:29 PM
    • 26,112 Posts
    • 15,469 Thanks
    xylophone
    Your mother's pensions, dividends etc are paid into the same account as her fees etc are paid from?

    A relative of mine managed his relative's Santander 123 as PoA - there were a couple of DDs on it so that the donor received interest.

    It was kept topped up to 20,000 ( around four months' fees) and the fees went out by SO.

    This was so that in the event of his sudden death before the donor shuffled off this mortal coil, there would at least be a "grace period" while things would go on as normal while matters could be sorted out.
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 10th Aug 18, 4:33 PM
    • 7,842 Posts
    • 8,657 Thanks
    eskbanker
    As I said previously, I can't pass my POA on so that route is dead.
    Originally posted by rbz5416
    I wasn't suggesting passing on your POA, I was meaning adding sister as a second/backup attorney, or is mum no longer in a position to set this up?
    • Marmaduke123
    • By Marmaduke123 10th Aug 18, 4:42 PM
    • 439 Posts
    • 409 Thanks
    Marmaduke123
    If it's a lasting power of attorney. I don't think you can add another attorney, the person has to make a new application.

    Is your mother mentally competent? Is so, surely it would be best for her to set up a new power of attorney now, with both of you and perhaps one other person as attorneys. If not, I imagine the Court of Protection would need to be involved if you predeceased your mother. I would be inclined to ask them for advice now
    • rbz5416
    • By rbz5416 10th Aug 18, 4:56 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    rbz5416
    Your mother's pensions, dividends etc are paid into the same account as her fees etc are paid from?
    Originally posted by xylophone
    Yes but she has monthly outgoings by invoice. I suppose I could look at maybe making those direct debit.

    I wasn't suggesting passing on your POA, I was meaning adding sister as a second/backup attorney, or is mum no longer in a position to set this up?
    Originally posted by eskbanker
    Sadly not.

    If it's a lasting power of attorney. I don't think you can add another attorney, the person has to make a new application.

    Is your mother mentally competent? Is so, surely it would be best for her to set up a new power of attorney now, with both of you and perhaps one other person as attorneys. If not, I imagine the Court of Protection would need to be involved if you predeceased your mother. I would be inclined to ask them for advice now
    Originally posted by Marmaduke123
    It's actually the old Enduring Power of Attorney but the same principle applies & only the donor can make changes while still competent. As above, that's not an option.

    You're correct in that the court needs to get involved via the appointment of a Deputy but that's full of stumbling blocks as already mentioned.

    In other news, I've just got my sister to log into one of the accounts from the USA & no alarms went off or SWAT teams abseiled from a helicopter, so that's looking like the best option.

    Edit
    Already spoken to the court & all they can offer is confirmation of the rules I already know.
    Last edited by rbz5416; 10-08-2018 at 4:59 PM.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

2,640Posts Today

8,422Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • Ta ta... for now. This August, as I try and do every few yrs, I'm lucky enough to be taking a sabbatical. No work,? https://t.co/Xx4R3eLhFG

  • RT @lethalbrignull: @MartinSLewis I've been sitting here for a good while trying to decide my answer to this, feeling grateful for living i?

  • Early days but currently it's exactly 50 50 in liberality v democracy, with younger people more liberal, older more? https://t.co/YwJr4izuIj

  • Follow Martin