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    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 10th Aug 18, 11:55 AM
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    bobwilson
    Is this an HMO?
    • #1
    • 10th Aug 18, 11:55 AM
    Is this an HMO? 10th Aug 18 at 11:55 AM
    NB: subject line should read "large HMO". Is this a large (licensable) HMO? Trying to establish whether an independent annexe with its own kitchen & bathroom forms part of a large (licensable) HMO under the new oct 2018 rules or not. I'm asking regarding the government rules, not the council rules.

    A 2 story house with unconverted loft, has 4 unrelated tenants. Would a 5th tenant in an independent annexe within the grounds that has its own kitchenette & bathroom, (the tenant walks through the garden gate to reach it, not through the house), form a large HMO or not?

    Does anyone know for certain whether it is or isn't a large licensable HMO? (and can you point me to a gov link to back it up?)

    Thanks
    Last edited by bobwilson; 10-08-2018 at 5:04 PM.
Page 1
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 10th Aug 18, 11:57 AM
    • 4,896 Posts
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    Comms69
    • #2
    • 10th Aug 18, 11:57 AM
    • #2
    • 10th Aug 18, 11:57 AM
    1: Check your local council - many have different, more extreme rules.
    2: Who are the 4 tenants, and do they all rent a room, or jointly rent the property?
    3: If the rent the whole property, are you sure they aren't already entitled to use the annexe?
    • sal_III
    • By sal_III 10th Aug 18, 11:59 AM
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    sal_III
    • #3
    • 10th Aug 18, 11:59 AM
    • #3
    • 10th Aug 18, 11:59 AM
    If you want "ironclad" info on the matter - speak with your local council, as they are the enforcers.
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 10th Aug 18, 12:11 PM
    • 425 Posts
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    bobwilson
    • #4
    • 10th Aug 18, 12:11 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Aug 18, 12:11 PM
    To clarify, our council goes by the government's minimum rules. They don't have more extreme measures. I'm trying to ascertain whether an annexe falls within HMO if it doesn't have shared kitchen or bathroom.

    The tenants are unrelated.

    They don't rent the whole property, they rent a room each.

    Since we're considering renting out an annexe, they obviously aren't "entitled" to use it, otherwise we wouldn't be asking.
    Last edited by bobwilson; 10-08-2018 at 12:13 PM.
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 10th Aug 18, 12:13 PM
    • 425 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    bobwilson
    • #5
    • 10th Aug 18, 12:13 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Aug 18, 12:13 PM
    If you want "ironclad" info on the matter - speak with your local council, as they are the enforcers.
    Originally posted by sal_III
    Have you ever tried speaking with your local council to gather reliable information? If so, I suspect you wouldn't wonder why we're posting here instead !

    The council has to go by min standards the gov set. I'm aware councils can add extra conditions, but I'm not asking about our council. I'll re-word the question; under the gov rules, does an independent annexe form part of a large HMO?
    Last edited by bobwilson; 10-08-2018 at 12:16 PM.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 10th Aug 18, 12:14 PM
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    Comms69
    • #6
    • 10th Aug 18, 12:14 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Aug 18, 12:14 PM
    To clarify, our council goes by the government's minimum rules. They don't have more extreme measures. I'm trying to ascertain whether an annexe falls within HMO if it doesn't have shared kitchen or bathroom.

    The tenants are unrelated.

    They don't rent the whole property, they rent a room each.


    Since we're considering renting out an annexe, they obviously aren't "entitled" to use it, otherwise we wouldn't be asking. In fact the annexe isn't built yet. We won't build it if it's going to make us fall within a licensable HMO.
    Originally posted by bobwilson
    So it's already a HMO....


    Oh I see, it's one of those hypothetical things.
    • sal_III
    • By sal_III 10th Aug 18, 12:16 PM
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    sal_III
    • #7
    • 10th Aug 18, 12:16 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Aug 18, 12:16 PM
    Annexe or not, if you already have 4 unrelated tenants, sharing kitchen and bathroom(s), your property is an HMO. Plan and clear on the gov website.

    If you have obscure circumstances - ask your council in writing whether you need a license or not. Then if one day, they come knocking on your door, you will have their response in your defence.
    • sal_III
    • By sal_III 10th Aug 18, 12:22 PM
    • 651 Posts
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    sal_III
    • #8
    • 10th Aug 18, 12:22 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Aug 18, 12:22 PM
    Have you ever tried speaking with your local council to gather reliable information? If so, I suspect you wouldn't wonder why we're posting here instead !

    The council has to go by min standards the gov set. I'm aware councils can add extra conditions, but I'm not asking about our council. I'll re-word the question; under the gov rules, does an independent annexe form part of a large HMO?
    Originally posted by bobwilson
    So, rather than relying on what's on the gov website and/or on your council website. You will rely on an internet forum post(s) to base your legal position on?

    That's why I said - the only way to be 100% sure where you stand is to get it from the horse's mouth - in this case the local council. As they are the ones in charge of enforcement. Anything else is conjecture.

    And if you are so unable to get information from your council, how are you so sure, that they are doing the bare minimum in regards to HMO licensing enforcement?
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 10th Aug 18, 12:37 PM
    • 425 Posts
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    bobwilson
    • #9
    • 10th Aug 18, 12:37 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Aug 18, 12:37 PM
    [QUOTE=Comms69;74642290] So it's already a HMO....

    Question was whether it's a large licensable HMO, re-read the op before you post.
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 10th Aug 18, 12:40 PM
    • 425 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    bobwilson
    So, rather than relying on what's on the gov website and/or on your council website. You will rely on an internet forum post(s) to base your legal position on?
    Originally posted by sal_III
    I'd rather rely on gov website, hence why I'm asking for a link to back up anyone's position.

    the only way to be 100% sure where you stand is to get it from the horse's mouth - in this case the local council. As they are the ones in charge of enforcement. Anything else is conjecture.
    Originally posted by sal_III
    If you think the council offer 100% certainty then you've obviously never spoken to people who work at a council. Thanks for telling me not to ask the question on this forum though, I'll ask where ever I like though. Thanks

    And if you are so unable to get information from your council, how are you so sure, that they are doing the bare minimum in regards to HMO licensing enforcement?
    Originally posted by sal_III
    That wasn't the question. If you can't answer the question, why are you posting? Go away.
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 10th Aug 18, 12:42 PM
    • 425 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    bobwilson
    Annexe or not, if you already have 4 unrelated tenants, sharing kitchen and bathroom(s), your property is an HMO. Plan and clear on the gov website.
    Originally posted by sal_III
    The op was whether it's a large (licensable) HMO, not whether it's an HMO. Read the op before you post.

    If you have obscure circumstances - ask your council in writing whether you need a license or not. Then if one day, they come knocking on your door, you will have their response in your defence.
    Originally posted by sal_III
    If you've ever dealt with the council, you'd realise telling them "so and so in your council told me x, so you can't now tell me y", has no effect upon their reasoning. If you are incapable of answering the op, please don't post. Thanks
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 10th Aug 18, 12:44 PM
    • 7,073 Posts
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    00ec25
    yes you will have a large HMO wef Oct 18


    to repeat my post on your other thread:


    the law was enacted in May 2018 with implementation from 1 Oct 18 and applies the definition from that date to all properties. The grace period originally mentioned at consultation stage has been removed


    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/616/made


    all you had to do was google "changes to HMO in 2018" there are plenty of websites that cover it


    https://news.rla.org.uk/extension-of-mandatory-hmo-licensing-set-for-october-2018/


    https://www.cieh.org/media/1798/david-smith.pdf


    https://www.insidepropertyinvesting.com/new-hmo-rules-licensing-2018-official/
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 10th Aug 18, 12:45 PM
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    Comms69
    I'd rather rely on gov website, hence why I'm asking for a link to back up anyone's position.

    If you think the council offer 100% certainty then you've obviously never spoken to people who work at a council. Thanks for telling me not to ask the question on this forum though, I'll ask where ever I like though. Thanks


    That wasn't the question. If you can't answer the question, why are you posting? Go away.
    Originally posted by bobwilson


    How to make friends and influence people....
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 10th Aug 18, 12:50 PM
    • 425 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    bobwilson
    How to make friends and influence people....
    Originally posted by Comms69
    If you think I'm here to make friends & influence people then you misunderstood the op. It's a simple question. If you can't answer it, why are you posting on this thread?
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 10th Aug 18, 12:53 PM
    • 425 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    bobwilson
    yes you will have a large HMO wef Oct 18

    ...

    the law was enacted in May 2018 with implementation from 1 Oct 18 and applies the definition from that date to all properties. The grace period originally mentioned at consultation stage has been removed


    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/616/made


    all you had to do was google "changes to HMO in 2018" there are plenty of websites that cover it


    https://news.rla.org.uk/extension-of-mandatory-hmo-licensing-set-for-october-2018/


    https://www.cieh.org/media/1798/david-smith.pdf


    https://www.insidepropertyinvesting.com/new-hmo-rules-licensing-2018-official/
    Originally posted by 00ec25
    Congratulations! You're the first person to attempt to answer the question. Your gov link doesn't state it's an HMO. From what I can read of your gov link, it says 5 unrelated tenants sharing kitchen or bathroom form a large HMO. Since this is 4 unrelated tenants sharing, what makes you think it's a large HMO?

    The last 3 links on your post are hear-say, since they're not gov info. If ever it came into question, you can't argue with the government "but insidepropertyinvesting.com says this". That's why the op asked for only government links.
    Last edited by bobwilson; 10-08-2018 at 1:02 PM.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 10th Aug 18, 12:54 PM
    • 4,896 Posts
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    Comms69
    If you think I'm here to make friends & influence people then you misunderstood the op. It's a simple question. If you can't answer it, why are you posting on this thread?
    Originally posted by bobwilson

    Because I don't like it when people waste others time:


    There's a 5th tenant in an independent annexe within the grounds. It has its own kitchen & bathroom, the tenant walks through the garden gate to reach it (not through the house).

    Since we're considering renting out an annexe, they obviously aren't "entitled" to use it, otherwise we wouldn't be asking. In fact the annexe isn't built yet. We won't build it if it's going to make us fall within a licensable HMO.


    These time travelling tenants must be a nightmare!
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 10th Aug 18, 1:08 PM
    • 425 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    bobwilson
    Because I don't like it when people waste others time:
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Then stop wasting my time.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 10th Aug 18, 1:09 PM
    • 4,896 Posts
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    Comms69
    Then stop wasting my time.
    Originally posted by bobwilson
    Youíre wasting your own time by editing your posts to make it appear as though everyone is wrong...
    • need an answer
    • By need an answer 10th Aug 18, 1:35 PM
    • 957 Posts
    • 1,167 Thanks
    need an answer
    Your home is a large HMO if all of the following apply: it's at least 3 storeys high. at least 5 tenants live there, forming more than 1 household. you share toilet, bathroom or kitchen facilities with other tenants.



    That is the definition given on the gov website.


    How tall is your building?

    Do all your tenants have use of all the facilities included within both the annexe and the main property or is the annexe separately occupied by just 1 tenant?
    in S 38 T 62 F 59
    out S 56 T 64 F 67
    2017 -32
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 10th Aug 18, 2:13 PM
    • 425 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    bobwilson
    Youíre wasting your own time by editing your posts to make it appear as though everyone is wrong...
    Originally posted by Comms69
    I'm editing my post to clarify the question. This isn't a competition about who is right or wrong- if you don't know the answer, you don't need to post.
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