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    • Metalmama
    • By Metalmama 8th Aug 18, 9:43 PM
    • 11Posts
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    Metalmama
    Divorced and childcare payment question
    • #1
    • 8th Aug 18, 9:43 PM
    Divorced and childcare payment question 8th Aug 18 at 9:43 PM
    Hello All,

    I am a single Mum with a 19 year old and 10 year old.

    I've been divorced just over 5 years, my ex ran up a considerable amount of debt unbeknown to me.

    Due to his finances, he pays no child support but the court order stipulates he has to pay the mortgage until the 10 year old completes his full-time education.

    I have health conditions which makes it hard for me to gain employment. I am currently doing four part time jobs to keep the house running and bills paid. Ex is on 40k and has remarried, has been on multiple holidays this year, including going to Australia at Christmas, meaning I have the 10 year old for 3 Christmas' running. He pays NOTHING towards the kids. I kit my eldest out for uni, and buy them both all their essentials such as uniform, clothes etc.

    Recently he took our son out of school for a short break despite me requesting him not to do so. As a result, I paid for a childcare session which my son missed due to his Dad's plans.

    I have asked my ex for the monies and was told as it was my arrangement, he was not going to pay it. So if this is the case, I could pay for multiple sessions and he could take our son and I would still have to pay them. Right.......

    I don't think this is right at all. Does anyone know if this is true? Makes no sense if it is.

    He also changes his weekends over and I get no consultation, leaving me to cancel my plans to accomodate his requirements.

    Last edited by Metalmama; 08-08-2018 at 9:45 PM.
Page 1
    • BrassicWoman
    • By BrassicWoman 8th Aug 18, 10:09 PM
    • 1,693 Posts
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    BrassicWoman
    • #2
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:09 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:09 PM
    But he is still paying the mortgage so you have no rent to pay?
    Jan 18 grocery challenge 105.13/ 150
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 8th Aug 18, 10:20 PM
    • 3,634 Posts
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    Comms69
    • #3
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:20 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:20 PM
    You!!!8217;re paying for someone else to look after your child; whether it!!!8217;s your ex or a company makes no difference.

    You do not have to cancel your plans, presumably the court order also orders contact.
    • LilElvis
    • By LilElvis 8th Aug 18, 10:36 PM
    • 3,732 Posts
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    LilElvis
    • #4
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:36 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:36 PM
    You might not be getting child maintenance but you are getting your mortgage paid - it would be rare to get both.

    Whilst it might be galling to have paid for childcare which goes unused the only time when you could reasonably expect him to pay for it is if you incur additional charges due to him cancelling his contact visits.

    If you're unhappy about him cancelling and changing contact and taking your son out of school then you can take him back to court to have arrangements formalised.

    If it makes you feel any better, someone who is paying a mortgage on a property, maintaining another household and going on multiple holidays a year - all on 40k p.a. - is almost certainly doing so by running up debt.
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 9th Aug 18, 11:35 AM
    • 6,688 Posts
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    TBagpuss
    • #5
    • 9th Aug 18, 11:35 AM
    • #5
    • 9th Aug 18, 11:35 AM
    have you contacted the CMS? Read your court order first but unless the order explicitly states that the mortgage payments are to be treated as Child Support and counted towards any liability he has, you could apply to the CMS and they will assess what he should pay for child support.

    depending on how the order is worded, it may be open to him to seek to change the amount he pays towards the mortgage so I would recommend that you speak to your solicitor before you take any action.

    In relation to the contact issues, you don't have to agree if he seeks to change a weekend. If he wants to have the children on a weekend when you've got plans, just say no.

    It is more difficult if he is failing to show up when they are due to be with him, as it is extremely hard to force someone to have contact and while you could simply take the children to his and drop them off, that's hard for the children. However, assuming that he does actually want to see them, if you say no when he wants to see them on your weekends because he didn't have them on his, it may encourage him to plan better. (i.e. if he just tells you he''ll have them next weekend instead of this, and you change your plans to accommodate that, then there is no reason for him to change as he's getting what he wants/ If he tells you he can't have them next weekend so he wants them this weekend instead and you say 'sorry, we've got plans. You can see them in 4 weeks time when it's your next weekend' then he has more of an incentive to plan better.

    You can also decide how much notice would be reasonable and factor that it -so then you might be saying to him "I can't swap because it's too short notice. Normally if you give me at least 2 weeks notice of you want to swap a weekend I will be able to agree" then it may encourage him to give you enough nituce that you are not having to change plans. (You can do this if it is him cancelling, too - if he says that he can't have the children on 'his' weekend it would not be unreasonable for you to say "Unfortunately, I've got plans this weekend so you will need to make arrangements for child care if you are not personally available" - you can't actually force him to do it but you can make the point that it is up to him to sort out.

    Do you currently have a contact order in place?
    • Metalmama
    • By Metalmama 9th Aug 18, 3:47 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Metalmama
    • #6
    • 9th Aug 18, 3:47 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Aug 18, 3:47 PM
    But he is still paying the mortgage so you have no rent to pay?
    Originally posted by BrassicWoman
    Yes that is correct.

    It is the mortgage he is paying only.
    • Metalmama
    • By Metalmama 9th Aug 18, 3:49 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Metalmama
    • #7
    • 9th Aug 18, 3:49 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Aug 18, 3:49 PM
    You!!!8217;re paying for someone else to look after your child; whether it!!!8217;s your ex or a company makes no difference.

    You do not have to cancel your plans, presumably the court order also orders contact.
    Originally posted by Comms69
    I did not have to cancel, but have paid for a session which was essentially wasted as I paid and my son did not attend.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 9th Aug 18, 3:50 PM
    • 3,634 Posts
    • 3,441 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #8
    • 9th Aug 18, 3:50 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Aug 18, 3:50 PM
    I did not have to cancel, but have paid for a session which was essentially wasted as I paid and my son did not attend.
    Originally posted by Metalmama
    You paid for someone to look after your son.


    Your son was looked after.


    You lost NOTHING.
    • Rubik
    • By Rubik 9th Aug 18, 3:54 PM
    • 153 Posts
    • 291 Thanks
    Rubik
    • #9
    • 9th Aug 18, 3:54 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Aug 18, 3:54 PM
    How much did the missed session cost?
    • Metalmama
    • By Metalmama 9th Aug 18, 4:06 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Metalmama
    have you contacted the CMS? Read your court order first but unless the order explicitly states that the mortgage payments are to be treated as Child Support and counted towards any liability he has, you could apply to the CMS and they will assess what he should pay for child support.

    depending on how the order is worded, it may be open to him to seek to change the amount he pays towards the mortgage so I would recommend that you speak to your solicitor before you take any action.

    In relation to the contact issues, you don't have to agree if he seeks to change a weekend. If he wants to have the children on a weekend when you've got plans, just say no.

    It is more difficult if he is failing to show up when they are due to be with him, as it is extremely hard to force someone to have contact and while you could simply take the children to his and drop them off, that's hard for the children. However, assuming that he does actually want to see them, if you say no when he wants to see them on your weekends because he didn't have them on his, it may encourage him to plan better. (i.e. if he just tells you he''ll have them next weekend instead of this, and you change your plans to accommodate that, then there is no reason for him to change as he's getting what he wants/ If he tells you he can't have them next weekend so he wants them this weekend instead and you say 'sorry, we've got plans. You can see them in 4 weeks time when it's your next weekend' then he has more of an incentive to plan better.

    You can also decide how much notice would be reasonable and factor that it -so then you might be saying to him "I can't swap because it's too short notice. Normally if you give me at least 2 weeks notice of you want to swap a weekend I will be able to agree" then it may encourage him to give you enough nituce that you are not having to change plans. (You can do this if it is him cancelling, too - if he says that he can't have the children on 'his' weekend it would not be unreasonable for you to say "Unfortunately, I've got plans this weekend so you will need to make arrangements for child care if you are not personally available" - you can't actually force him to do it but you can make the point that it is up to him to sort out.

    Do you currently have a contact order in place?
    Originally posted by TBagpuss
    There is no contact order in place. I was advised on Wikivorce that that is usually agreed mutually betweeen both parties, and orders are only put in if there is an issue.

    I am not pursuing CM as he pays the mortgage, I am just disputing the fact that I have paid for a childcare sesssion which was essentially a waste of money for me.

    I spoke to a solicitor last year and was told I could apply for CM but the he could say he could not afford both and get the order changed. I am not going to risk that.

    I don't like that fact I get a pathetic spreadsheet with dates on and they have been changed without asking. Common courtesy to ask and not assume. Or maybe not in his case.
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 9th Aug 18, 4:11 PM
    • 6,259 Posts
    • 13,366 Thanks
    marliepanda
    I am not pursuing CM as he pays the mortgage, I am just disputing the fact that I have paid for a childcare sesssion which was essentially a waste of money for me.
    Originally posted by Metalmama
    The thing is though you have not lost money. If the dad didnt show up you will have spent it anyway.

    I understand you feel that money is wasted but he didnt cause you to 'lose' any money.
    • Rubik
    • By Rubik 9th Aug 18, 4:21 PM
    • 153 Posts
    • 291 Thanks
    Rubik
    What is it you are most aggrieved about - the missed child care session, or that you have "a pathetic spreadsheet with dates on and they have been changed without asking." Would it help to have a proper parenting plan that covers all aspects of your child's upbringing, and agreement on how you will both parent your child?
    • jackieblack
    • By jackieblack 9th Aug 18, 4:23 PM
    • 7,874 Posts
    • 11,535 Thanks
    jackieblack
    If it makes you feel any better, someone who is paying a mortgage on a property, maintaining another household and going on multiple holidays a year - all on 40k p.a. - is almost certainly doing so by running up debt.
    Originally posted by LilElvis
    Really? That's a huge assumption based on very little information!

    OP's ex has remarried, for all we know the new spouse could be working full-time earning decent money and their combined household income way more than the 40k OP's ex earns.
    Neither do we have any idea how much OPs mortgage is each month...

    I've been running my household, including a trip to the USA every year and paying the mortgage, on about 1/3 of that 40k. Even when a family of 4 with with two teenagers living here, our household income was never more than 1/2 of that and we managed fine without running up debt
    Last edited by jackieblack; 09-08-2018 at 4:43 PM.
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    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 9th Aug 18, 4:26 PM
    • 3,634 Posts
    • 3,441 Thanks
    Comms69
    Really?
    It always amazes me how wasteful some people are with their money!

    Depends on individual spending habits of course, but I've been running my household, including a trip to the USA every year on about 1/3 of that amount, even as a family of 4 with with two teenagers living here income has never been more than 1/2 of that!

    OP hasn't said how much the mortgage on her home is, but even if it's 1000 a month, that'd still give me a spare 15k pa approx, easily enough for a couple of extra holidays and I certainly wouldn't be going into debt!!
    Originally posted by jackieblack
    Not a chance, sorry 20,000 in total household income.


    Or is that before subisidies in child benefit etc.


    Bearing in mind 20k is approx. 1,400 a month...
    • anna_1977
    • By anna_1977 9th Aug 18, 4:35 PM
    • 729 Posts
    • 989 Thanks
    anna_1977
    OP you've said he earns 40k but I'm assuming that is what he did earn when you divorced or is it reviewed every year? For all you know he could be on a lot more now.....

    I get you're feeling aggrieved but he is paying you, just in the form of the mortgage.

    The 19 year old is an adult, mine worked the summer before uni to kit themselves out as they knew I didn't have the spare cash. Why are you still buying him clothes ?

    Just out of curiosity, when the youngest leaves school I'm guessing you'll have to give the ex a percentage of the house, especially if he's been paying the mortgage all these years
    Last edited by anna_1977; 09-08-2018 at 4:38 PM.
    • jackieblack
    • By jackieblack 9th Aug 18, 5:22 PM
    • 7,874 Posts
    • 11,535 Thanks
    jackieblack
    Not a chance, sorry 20,000 in total household income.

    Or is that before subisidies in child benefit etc.

    Bearing in mind 20k is approx. 1,400 a month...
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Yep, I'm well aware how much it is, and yes I did get CB on top of that (for one child, so about 20 a week) but nothing else.

    It was quite easily done, thanks
    (I am pretty good at making full use of things like Clubcard vouchers/Avios/hotel rewards points etc which all helps)
    Last edited by jackieblack; 09-08-2018 at 5:26 PM.
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    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 9th Aug 18, 5:25 PM
    • 3,634 Posts
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    Comms69
    Yep, I'm well aware how much it is, and yes I did get CB on top of that (for one child, so about 20 a week) but nothing else.

    It was quite easily done, thanks
    Originally posted by jackieblack

    It's not that I don't believe you; it's rather that it's unrealistic for most people.
    • jackieblack
    • By jackieblack 9th Aug 18, 5:36 PM
    • 7,874 Posts
    • 11,535 Thanks
    jackieblack
    It's not that I don't believe you; it's rather that it's unrealistic for most people.
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Depends on individual circumstances, I appreciate that (although I hardly think I'm unique) but that's my point...

    We don't know the OP's ex's financial circumstances apart from the little we've been told ( he earns 40k, has several holidays a year and pays OPs mortgage), so to state categorically that he must be running up debt is highly presumptive IMO.

    For example:
    We don't know how much ex's new spouse earns
    We don't know ex's household expenses (maybe new wife already owned house mortgage free?)
    We don't know how much the mortgage is on the home OP and children live in (if it's the marital home it might have been purchased 20 years ago and hence the mortgage is likely small in comparison to a modern mortgage levels)

    We simply have too little information in order to make a judgment like that, IMO
    Last edited by jackieblack; 09-08-2018 at 5:39 PM.
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    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 9th Aug 18, 6:25 PM
    • 3,634 Posts
    • 3,441 Thanks
    Comms69
    Depends on individual circumstances, I appreciate that (although I hardly think I'm unique) but that's my point...

    We don't know the OP's ex's financial circumstances apart from the little we've been told ( he earns 40k, has several holidays a year and pays OPs mortgage), so to state categorically that he must be running up debt is highly presumptive IMO.

    For example:
    We don't know how much ex's new spouse earns
    We don't know ex's household expenses (maybe new wife already owned house mortgage free?)
    We don't know how much the mortgage is on the home OP and children live in (if it's the marital home it might have been purchased 20 years ago and hence the mortgage is likely small in comparison to a modern mortgage levels)

    We simply have too little information in order to make a judgment like that, IMO
    Originally posted by jackieblack
    Oh I agree. With that.

    But I know with an income in excess of 20k we do fine day to day but holidays and Christmas are a big stretch
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 9th Aug 18, 9:24 PM
    • 12,624 Posts
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    unholyangel
    It's not that I don't believe you; it's rather that it's unrealistic for most people.
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Given half of full time workers earn less than 550 a week (28k a year) and half of part time workers earn less than 180 per week (9500 a year), I would suggest that its unrealistic for some rather than most.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
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