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  • FIRST POST
    • the shreksta
    • By the shreksta 8th Aug 18, 7:11 PM
    • 82Posts
    • 13Thanks
    the shreksta
    house builder wants me to remove my driveway
    • #1
    • 8th Aug 18, 7:11 PM
    house builder wants me to remove my driveway 8th Aug 18 at 7:11 PM
    so to cut a long story short here is a brief rundown of my problem.

    bought a new build house last year (26th august handover date), the house is a 3 bed detached with driveway leading to garage and front garden. i wanted to rip up all the front garden and turn it into extra parking space as we have 3 cars.
    i asked jelsons, i asked my solicitor and nobody could give me a clear yes or no. in the end i spoke with the 2 site managers who told me to speak with the council, so i spoke with them who told me i have full permitted development rights and any surface at the front must be a permeable surface ie gravel. so i got my landscaper to carry out the work, using a proper sub base/permeable weed fabric and white gravel on top with a block paved edge.

    this was 11 months ago (sept 2017 work was completed)

    today i have had a letter stating that i must remove all the gravel and replace with turf as the county council highways consultant will not adopt the road due to loose gravel within 5 meters from the highway. we have 60 days to complete this or face possible court action. there are two other properties on my street that have done the same and also had the same letter.

    my argument is that the council have said as long as i use the correct surface i have full development rights. also when we took the property from jelsons it comes with gravel leading down to the path/road so how can they expect me to dig mine up when they clearly provide it to you.

    here is a before and after pic, a pic of the letter and a pic of my neighbours driveway with gravel provided by jelsons.

    im totally digging my heels in on this one. anybody had any similar issues or can see a weak point in my defence.

    i have the email trail with the council as proof of our conversation.

    seems i cant add pics for some reason
    Last edited by the shreksta; 08-08-2018 at 7:14 PM.
Page 1
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 8th Aug 18, 7:17 PM
    • 2,078 Posts
    • 1,258 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    • #2
    • 8th Aug 18, 7:17 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Aug 18, 7:17 PM
    so to cut a long story short here is a brief rundown of my problem.

    bought a new build house last year (26th august handover date), the house is a 3 bed detached with driveway leading to garage and front garden. i wanted to rip up all the front garden and turn it into extra parking space as we have 3 cars.
    i asked jelsons, i asked my solicitor and nobody could give me a clear yes or no. in the end i spoke with the 2 site managers who told me to speak with the council, so i spoke with them who told me i have full permitted development rights and any surface at the front must be a permeable surface ie gravel. so i got my landscaper to carry out the work, using a proper sub base/permeable weed fabric and white gravel on top with a block paved edge.

    this was 11 months ago (sept 2017 work was completed)

    today i have had a letter stating that i must remove all the gravel and replace with turf as the county council highways consultant will not adopt the road due to loose gravel within 5 meters from the highway. we have 60 days to complete this or face possible court action. there are two other properties on my street that have done the same and also had the same letter.

    my argument is that the council have said as long as i use the correct surface i have full development rights. also when we took the property from jelsons it comes with gravel leading down to the path/road so how can they expect me to dig mine up when they clearly provide it to you.

    here is a before and after pic, a pic of the letter and a pic of my neighbours driveway with gravel provided by jelsons.

    im totally digging my heels in on this one. anybody had any similar issues or can see a weak point in my defence.

    i have the email trail with the council as proof of our conversation.

    seems i cant add pics for some reason
    Originally posted by the shreksta
    What legislation have they quoted and what does it say?
    Hi there! Weve had to remove your signature. Please check the Forum Rules if youre unsure why its been removed and, if still unsure, email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Johnhowell
    • By Johnhowell 8th Aug 18, 7:23 PM
    • 614 Posts
    • 274 Thanks
    Johnhowell
    • #3
    • 8th Aug 18, 7:23 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Aug 18, 7:23 PM
    it is usual a requirement not to have unbound gravel within a distance of public highway so not to get stone scatter. The council should have explained that.


    All you need to do is replaced the front edge to the highway with block paving instead of gravel.

    Good luck
    • the shreksta
    • By the shreksta 8th Aug 18, 7:47 PM
    • 82 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    the shreksta
    • #4
    • 8th Aug 18, 7:47 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Aug 18, 7:47 PM
    Thread with pics and letter here.....

    https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby-related-4/1055590-anybody-clued-up-on-planning-law-etc.html
    • the shreksta
    • By the shreksta 8th Aug 18, 8:00 PM
    • 82 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    the shreksta
    • #5
    • 8th Aug 18, 8:00 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Aug 18, 8:00 PM
    it is usual a requirement not to have unbound gravel within a distance of public highway so not to get stone scatter. The council should have explained that.


    All you need to do is replaced the front edge to the highway with block paving instead of gravel.

    Good luck
    Originally posted by Johnhowell
    In my defence the council said nothing of the sort neither did the planning portal site I was sent a link to, not being pshycic either means I would have no idea of that requirement.

    Surely I have good grounds to refuse? There is nothing in my deeds either.
    • Typhoon2000
    • By Typhoon2000 8th Aug 18, 8:10 PM
    • 876 Posts
    • 426 Thanks
    Typhoon2000
    • #6
    • 8th Aug 18, 8:10 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Aug 18, 8:10 PM
    So it seems there is nothing wrong about your gravel from a drive way point of view if it meets local guidelines regarding driveways/ drainage.
    The council won!!!8217;t adopt the road it the current state.
    The driveway does not comply with the estate scheme as approved, but that not a problem for you or the council.

    To enable getting the road adopted ( which I guess will be to your benefit ), you could build a short temporary wall, plant some shrubs, or put down some block paving.just by the pavement. Reverse once adopted.
    • the shreksta
    • By the shreksta 8th Aug 18, 9:01 PM
    • 82 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    the shreksta
    • #7
    • 8th Aug 18, 9:01 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Aug 18, 9:01 PM

    To enable getting the road adopted ( which I guess will be to your benefit ), you could build a short temporary wall, plant some shrubs, or put down some block paving.just by the pavement. Reverse once adopted.
    Originally posted by Typhoon2000
    That's all well and good but surely they should be letting people know what they can and can't do before they move in

    There is actually 4 of us on this street in the same situation now.
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 8th Aug 18, 11:02 PM
    • 6,107 Posts
    • 16,062 Thanks
    EachPenny
    • #8
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:02 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:02 PM
    In my defence the council said nothing of the sort neither did the planning portal site I was sent a link to, not being pshycic either means I would have no idea of that requirement.

    Surely I have good grounds to refuse? There is nothing in my deeds either.
    Originally posted by the shreksta
    Do you have details of the person you spoke to at the council? Were they familiar with your development? Did they know the adoptions status of the road?

    Sometimes you can speak to a 'helpful' person who isn't aware of the full facts. If you don't know the details of the person you spoke to you have very little chance of getting a good outcome.

    But you do need to adopt a positive approach to getting it sorted out, rather than digging heels in. If the adoption is delayed because of you (and others) you may become an unpopular member of the community. Furthermore, if you were wrongly advised about the permitted development rights then you could be in breach of planning conditions, which could have serious consequences.

    TBH I would be very surprised if you did have full PD rights to create additional parking areas, this is one area most councils are quite tight on in new developments.

    To enable getting the road adopted ( which I guess will be to your benefit ), you could build a short temporary wall, plant some shrubs, or put down some block paving.just by the pavement. Reverse once adopted.
    Originally posted by Typhoon2000
    This would need further investigation with the planning department. Building a wall may well need planning consent, or a variation in one of the existing conditions.
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • FreeBear
    • By FreeBear 8th Aug 18, 11:43 PM
    • 1,818 Posts
    • 2,600 Thanks
    FreeBear
    • #9
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:43 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:43 PM
    you could build a short temporary wall, plant some shrubs, or put down some block paving.just by the pavement. Reverse once adopted.
    Originally posted by Typhoon2000
    A white picket fence about 600mm high and some artificial grass nailed down over the gravel. Once the developers have disappeared, roll the grass up and flog it on ebay along with the fence.
    Her courage will change the world.

    Treasure the moments that you have. Savour them for as long as you can for they will never come back again.
    • stator
    • By stator 9th Aug 18, 12:49 AM
    • 6,442 Posts
    • 4,295 Thanks
    stator
    Remove gravel, store in bags at back of property. Wait.
    Changing the world, one sarcastic comment at a time.
    • the shreksta
    • By the shreksta 9th Aug 18, 7:28 AM
    • 82 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    the shreksta
    Do you have details of the person you spoke to at the council? Were they familiar with your development? Did they know the adoptions status of the road?

    Sometimes you can speak to a 'helpful' person who isn't aware of the full facts. If you don't know the details of the person you spoke to you have very little chance of getting a good outcome.

    But you do need to adopt a positive approach to getting it sorted out, rather than digging heels in. If the adoption is delayed because of you (and others) you may become an unpopular member of the community. Furthermore, if you were wrongly advised about the permitted development rights then you could be in breach of planning conditions, which could have serious consequences.

    TBH I would be very surprised if you did have full PD rights to create additional parking areas, this is one area most councils are quite tight on in new developments.


    This would need further investigation with the planning department. Building a wall may well need planning consent, or a variation in one of the existing conditions.
    Originally posted by EachPenny
    If I have been wrongly advised then I put the blame to them, I can't be held accountable for something that was incorrectly relayed to me.

    Yes I have the details and the emails from the person at the council, I spoke with her yesterday she said she will do her best and look into it.

    I drove around the estate last night and I must have counted around 15 properties with gravel fronts so I'm not on my own.

    Also why would any council be strict on extra parking areas being created on private land? Surely that's better than having the streets blocked up with cars.
    • PasturesNew
    • By PasturesNew 9th Aug 18, 7:36 AM
    • 63,724 Posts
    • 373,063 Thanks
    PasturesNew
    These are what I see as the essential points:

    1/ The road needs to be adopted, to aid you in future selling.
    2/ Your driveway is one of the things currently stopping it.
    3/ There's no point digging your heels in as you won't win against "the man" who can simply not adopt the road.
    4/ They do not have to tell you what is acceptable, that was for you to research - the system is set up with these hurdles; nobody "tells you what you should do" these days, they simply hit you when you broke a rule you didn't even know you needed to know.
    5/ There is no value in looking at the transgressions of others, just do what you need to do so you're not "part of the problem" from the other residents' perspective who are waiting for the road to be adopted.
    6/ Solutions have been given above: Bag up the gravel, lay a strip of artificial grass for now ... whatever it takes ..... revert once adopted.
    • comeandgo
    • By comeandgo 9th Aug 18, 7:44 AM
    • 2,137 Posts
    • 2,919 Thanks
    comeandgo
    Did you give the person at the council all the facts regarding the development? Did you explain it was new build, that the road has not been adopted etc. If you only gave half the story then the person could only give half an answer.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 9th Aug 18, 8:52 AM
    • 32,710 Posts
    • 19,694 Thanks
    getmore4less
    loose gravel is a nightmare.

    Could have used gravel grids to stabilize
    Ask if that is an acceptable solution.

    have you checked the planning for the site?

    Land Outlands Drive Hinckley Leicestershire
    should find it.

    The plans from 2009 has you with 2 trees/bushes in your front garden
    http://publicdocuments.hinckley-bosworth.gov.uk/AnitePublicDocs/00053067.pdf
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 9th Aug 18, 9:07 AM
    • 2,237 Posts
    • 3,010 Thanks
    Aylesbury Duck
    What a shame that four properties so far have ripped up what were quite attractive front lawns and paths and replaced them with an unsightly mass of gravel. It looks terrible. As well as perhaps being unpopular with neighbours if you delay the adoption of the road, I suspect some aren't happy that the reality of their street looks nothing like the relatively green frontages in the brochures and showhomes.

    In reality, it's inevitable that most will go the same route and what was once quite an attractive street will look like a badly organised car dealership in a builder's yard.
    Please forgive the deliberate omission of apostrophes on some posts whilst I await MSE to do something about the daft codes that appear in their place when typing on certain devices.
    • onomatopoeia99
    • By onomatopoeia99 9th Aug 18, 9:58 AM
    • 4,484 Posts
    • 10,225 Thanks
    onomatopoeia99
    What a shame that four properties so far have ripped up what were quite attractive front lawns and paths and replaced them with an unsightly mass of gravel. It looks terrible.
    Originally posted by Aylesbury Duck
    Subjective.

    Gravel sounds and looks a much better option than grass to me.
    INTP, nerd, libertarian and scifi geek.
    Home is where my books are.
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 9th Aug 18, 10:46 AM
    • 6,107 Posts
    • 16,062 Thanks
    EachPenny
    If I have been wrongly advised then I put the blame to them, I can't be held accountable for something that was incorrectly relayed to me.
    Originally posted by the shreksta
    You can blame who you like, but it won't resolve the problem. A council officer giving you incorrect advice doesn't alter requirements for adoption, nor override planning law/decisions. At best a complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman might result in some compensation to offset the costs of any abortive work, but only if you have evidence which leads to a finding of maladministration.

    Also why would any council be strict on extra parking areas being created on private land? Surely that's better than having the streets blocked up with cars.
    Originally posted by the shreksta
    Councils want to achieve an appropriate mix of soft and hard landscaping within new developments and pay attention to how the completed development will look. If the approved landscaping design includes front gardens with grass then it is possible these areas have been counted as part of the overall percentage of 'green' area within the development.

    The other aspect is councils adopting restrictive parking standards to try and reduce car ownership and use. The theory is restricting parking spaces will discourage people from owning cars, so therefore a planning consent may be given including parking for one or two cars, but future owners/occupiers would be prohibited from increasing the number of spaces (usually by conditions and/or removal of PD rights). Sometimes this is coupled with designing the road layout to limit on-street parking and/or using parked cars as a form of traffic calming - as far as the planning authority is concerned as long as essential service vehicles can still get through, a residential road blocked up with cars is safer than one which is clear.
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • stator
    • By stator 9th Aug 18, 11:04 AM
    • 6,442 Posts
    • 4,295 Thanks
    stator
    Have you actually look at your contract with the builder to see what your obligations are and what restrictions they have placed on you?


    If your contract has obligations and you don't fulfil them, then they could take legal action against you.
    Changing the world, one sarcastic comment at a time.
    • the shreksta
    • By the shreksta 9th Aug 18, 11:21 AM
    • 82 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    the shreksta
    Have you actually look at your contract with the builder to see what your obligations are and what restrictions they have placed on you?


    If your contract has obligations and you don't fulfil them, then they could take legal action against you.
    Originally posted by stator
    Hi

    Yes I have looked at them over and over again, there is plenty of stuff we are not allowed like a caravan on the drive/livestock/floor mounted satellite dish/sell alcohol etc etc but absolutely nothing regarding keeping the grass/not changing the front.
    • the shreksta
    • By the shreksta 9th Aug 18, 11:27 AM
    • 82 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    the shreksta
    loose gravel is a nightmare.

    Could have used gravel grids to stabilize
    Ask if that is an acceptable solution.

    have you checked the planning for the site?

    Land Outlands Drive Hinckley Leicestershire
    should find it.

    The plans from 2009 has you with 2 trees/bushes in your front garden
    http://publicdocuments.hinckley-bosworth.gov.uk/AnitePublicDocs/00053067.pdf
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    Hi and thanks for the time spent finding that.

    That picture shows us sharing a front lawn with next door but that is not the case as Jelsons put gravel down between our houses. Also there are no bushes/trees/shrubs anywhere down gallus drive.
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