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    • chichi1978
    • By chichi1978 8th Aug 18, 11:15 AM
    • 27Posts
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    chichi1978
    end rent 2-month notice?
    • #1
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:15 AM
    end rent 2-month notice? 8th Aug 18 at 11:15 AM
    Hi experts,

    It’s my second time renting and I came across this issue:

    I am renting a house in SW11, London (with 3 other friends) and the contract says:

    The Main Terms of the Tenancy:
    THE INITIAL FIXED TERM:
    Start Date (on and includes): 20th of September 2017
    End Date (on and includes): 19th of September 2018

    (xii) THE CONTRACT MAY BE TERMINATED BY THE TENANT OR THE LANDLORD PROVIDING 2 MONTHS
    NOTICE IS GIVEN IN WRITING AFTER THE INITIAL FIXED TERM.


    Just in case, I emailed the agency saying that on 19th September we were leaving and they said we must give a 2-month notice, and that we must stay until 19th October. I thought the 2-month notice was only for 'after', meaning if the original contract was extended... The end date for the contract is clear it says 19th september 2018, isn't that valid enought?

    Is it ok what they are doing? I remember we verbally agreed it was for only one year… In the contract there is no bit saying ‘auto-roll’ or ‘rolling over one month’.

    What can I do? To be honest I have another place already from 20th September on… I feel such an idiot!
Page 1
    • Malibusmash
    • By Malibusmash 8th Aug 18, 11:33 AM
    • 78 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Malibusmash
    • #2
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:33 AM
    • #2
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:33 AM
    From what I understand there is no legal requirement for you to give notice to leave at the end of a Fixed-Term tenancy.

    You have already given them more than a month's 'notice' out of politeness.

    Just ensure you give vacant possession on or before the 19th September because just one minute past this end date will require you to pay another full month's notice, and so on.

    You might find this helpful:- https://housingrights.org.uk/news/requiring-ntq-end-fixed-term-tenancy-unfair-and-unenforceable
    • saajan_12
    • By saajan_12 8th Aug 18, 11:39 AM
    • 1,370 Posts
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    saajan_12
    • #3
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:39 AM
    • #3
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:39 AM
    Hi experts,

    It!!!8217;s my second time renting and I came across this issue:

    I am renting a house in SW11, London (with 3 other friends) and the contract says:

    The Main Terms of the Tenancy:
    THE INITIAL FIXED TERM:
    Start Date (on and includes): 20th of September 2017
    End Date (on and includes): 19th of September 2018

    (xii) THE CONTRACT MAY BE TERMINATED BY THE TENANT OR THE LANDLORD PROVIDING 2 MONTHS
    NOTICE IS GIVEN IN WRITING AFTER THE INITIAL FIXED TERM.


    Just in case, I emailed the agency saying that on 19th September we were leaving and they said we must give a 2-month notice, and that we must stay until 19th October. I thought the 2-month notice was only for 'after', meaning if the original contract was extended... The end date for the contract is clear it says 19th september 2018, isn't that valid enought?

    Is it ok what they are doing? I remember we verbally agreed it was for only one year!!!8230; In the contract there is no bit saying !!!8216;auto-roll!!!8217; or !!!8216;rolling over one month!!!8217;.

    What can I do? To be honest I have another place already from 20th September on!!!8230; I feel such an idiot!
    Originally posted by chichi1978
    The end date is 19th September, so as long as you vacate the property by that date, the tenancy will end without needing notice. The LL could only have a further claim (other than for damage):
    - IF the contract requires notice to terminate AT the end of the fixed term, not after (check to see if there's another clause)
    - IF you fail to serve notice in line with the contractual clause
    - IF the LL suffers losses (eg void in rent)
    - IF those losses were as a result of your failure to serve notice (ie if you had served notice they could have advertised earlier and someone would have agreed to move in earlier)

    That's a lot of IFs and the clause you've quoted only applies after the fixed term, but check to see if there's any others. If you're committed to somewhere else then move out on / before 19th Sept (do you have somewhere for 19th night?). IF the current LL tries it on asking for another months rent, worst they can do is deduct it from the deposit, which you can dispute through the deposit scheme.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 8th Aug 18, 12:58 PM
    • 3,705 Posts
    • 3,509 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #4
    • 8th Aug 18, 12:58 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Aug 18, 12:58 PM
    The end date is 19th September, so as long as you vacate the property by that date, the tenancy will end without needing notice. The LL could only have a further claim (other than for damage):
    - IF the contract requires notice to terminate AT the end of the fixed term, not after (check to see if there's another clause)
    - IF you fail to serve notice in line with the contractual clause
    - IF the LL suffers losses (eg void in rent)
    - IF those losses were as a result of your failure to serve notice (ie if you had served notice they could have advertised earlier and someone would have agreed to move in earlier)

    That's a lot of IFs and the clause you've quoted only applies after the fixed term, but check to see if there's any others. If you're committed to somewhere else then move out on / before 19th Sept (do you have somewhere for 19th night?). IF the current LL tries it on asking for another months rent, worst they can do is deduct it from the deposit, which you can dispute through the deposit scheme.
    Originally posted by saajan_12
    Sorry must disagree, no clause requiring notice to end a fixed term on the last day contract can be valid.


    Thereby the LL cannot seek any recompense for voids etc.
    • saajan_12
    • By saajan_12 8th Aug 18, 1:04 PM
    • 1,370 Posts
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    saajan_12
    • #5
    • 8th Aug 18, 1:04 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Aug 18, 1:04 PM
    Sorry must disagree, no clause requiring notice to end a fixed term on the last day contract can be valid.


    Thereby the LL cannot seek any recompense for voids etc.
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Do you have any substantiation for that? Generally contractually agreed terms are valid unless there is a specific reason otherwise.

    Without notice, I'm saying the tenancy would still end if the property was vacated by the end of the fixed term tenancy, but breaching a clause to serve notice would allow the LL to bring a civil claim for monetary losses.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 8th Aug 18, 1:16 PM
    • 3,705 Posts
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    Comms69
    • #6
    • 8th Aug 18, 1:16 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Aug 18, 1:16 PM
    Do you have any substantiation for that? Generally contractually agreed terms are valid unless there is a specific reason otherwise.

    Without notice, I'm saying the tenancy would still end if the property was vacated by the end of the fixed term tenancy, but breaching a clause to serve notice would allow the LL to bring a civil claim for monetary losses.
    Originally posted by saajan_12


    Many terms have long been ruled to be unfair - though now defunct the office of fair trading ruled this to be unfair consistently; as far as I'm aware the courts have stuck with that.


    That said; even if a court was to go against the grain. The landlord needs to have a provable loss.


    The LL might have a void regardless. How would one prove (which is what the LL must do on the basis of probability) that he would not have suffered a void?
    • chichi1978
    • By chichi1978 8th Aug 18, 2:07 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    chichi1978
    • #7
    • 8th Aug 18, 2:07 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Aug 18, 2:07 PM
    Thank you very much for all your support/answers.

    I am communicating through email not with the LL, but with the ‘Property manager’ of the company, called ‘LANIGAN STATES’.

    This person sent me an email saying:

    Your contract states – clause (xv) “ending tenancy: should either party wish to terminate the tenancy it is agreed that a minimum of 2 months advance written notice must be served on the other party and the tenancy must not expire within the first 12 months of the tenancy commencement date”.


    Should I just send him this link?
    https://housingrights.org.uk/news/requiring-ntq-end-fixed-term-tenancy-unfair-and-unenforceable

    Or shall I go to the their offices and talk about it? I don’t know what to do.

    I understand the contract says that, but I thought that applied only outside the fixed term...

    The quote he says, is from this bit of the contract:


    (xii) THE CONTRACT MAY BE TERMINATED BY THE TENANT OR THE LANDLORD PROVIDING 2 MONTHS
    NOTICE IS GIVEN IN WRITING AFTER THE INITIAL FIXED TERM.

    (xiii) IF THE TENANT submits a cheque to the Landlord or his Agents and the said cheque has to be represented
    or is for any reason returned unpaid by the payee’s bank or if any standing order is withdrawn the Tenant shall pay
    a charge of £25 in respect of administration costs and bank charges.

    (xiv) RENT INCREASE should a contract convert to a periodic tenancy at the end of the Initial Term then the Rent
    shall increase by not more than 5% of the existing annual Rent and will be in line with market conditions which will
    take effect each 12 months for the duration of the tenancy.

    (xv) Ending Tenancy: Should either party wish to terminate the Tenancy, it is agreed that a minimum
    of 2 month's advance written notice must be served on the other party and the tenancy must not expire
    within the first 12 months of the Tenancy commencement date.

    (xvi) OPTION TO RENEW it is mutually agreed between the parties that if the Tenant wishes to continue the
    Tenancy created on the 20th of September 2017 for a further period of one year (“the second term”) from the end
    of the Term granted then the Landlord may agree to let the premises for a further period of one year from the
    expiry of the initial Term (with the exception of this clause) at an increased Rent. The rent increase shall not be
    more than 5% of the existing annual Rent and will be in line with market conditions.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 8th Aug 18, 2:36 PM
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    Comms69
    • #8
    • 8th Aug 18, 2:36 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Aug 18, 2:36 PM
    Those terms are contradictory. (xii & xv)
    • chichi1978
    • By chichi1978 8th Aug 18, 2:48 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    chichi1978
    • #9
    • 8th Aug 18, 2:48 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Aug 18, 2:48 PM
    Yes, I thought the same!


    I want to reply this to his email like the below, I don't want to pick up a fight with the guy, how does it look?


    That clause you mention, comes after clause xii:

    (xii) THE CONTRACT MAY BE TERMINATED BY THE TENANT OR THE LANDLORD PROVIDING 2 MONTHS
    NOTICE IS GIVEN IN WRITING AFTER THE INITIAL FIXED TERM.


    Xv refers to xii.


    Furthermore, it is not that we wish to terminate the tenancy, the tenancy ends at that date.

    The Main Terms of the Tenancy:
    THE INITIAL FIXED TERM:
    Start Date (on and includes): 20th of September 2017
    End Date (on and includes): 19th of September 2018


    Additionally, the tenancy will be determined by natural expiry at the end of the relevant term. There is no legal requirement to serve a notice to quit at the end of term in these circumstances. This rule has been established by the courts in the cases of Wright v Tracey (1874) IR 8 CL 478 and McGrath v Travers (1948) IR 122.

    You must know that these clauses will almost certainly be void under the Unfair Contract Terms regulations (now part of the Consumer Rights Act 2015). We only signed up for a specific period of time. Any clause forcing us to stay longer or attempting to make us liable is considered ‘unfair’ and unenforceable.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 8th Aug 18, 2:50 PM
    • 3,705 Posts
    • 3,509 Thanks
    Comms69
    Yes, I thought the same!


    I want to reply this to his email like the below, I don't want to pick up a fight with the guy, how does it look?


    That clause you mention, comes after clause xii:

    (xii) THE CONTRACT MAY BE TERMINATED BY THE TENANT OR THE LANDLORD PROVIDING 2 MONTHS
    NOTICE IS GIVEN IN WRITING AFTER THE INITIAL FIXED TERM.


    Xv refers to xii.


    Furthermore, it is not that we wish to terminate the tenancy, the tenancy ends at that date.

    The Main Terms of the Tenancy:
    THE INITIAL FIXED TERM:
    Start Date (on and includes): 20th of September 2017
    End Date (on and includes): 19th of September 2018


    Additionally, the tenancy will be determined by natural expiry at the end of the relevant term. There is no legal requirement to serve a notice to quit at the end of term in these circumstances. This rule has been established by the courts in the cases of Wright v Tracey (1874) IR 8 CL 478 and McGrath v Travers (1948) IR 122.

    You must know that these clauses will almost certainly be void under the Unfair Contract Terms regulations (now part of the Consumer Rights Act 2015). We only signed up for a specific period of time. Any clause forcing us to stay longer or attempting to make us liable is considered ‘unfair’ and unenforceable.
    Originally posted by chichi1978
    Sounds good to me, I don't think further discussions there after would be fruitful.


    Move out, claim back your deposit if needs be.
    • Malibusmash
    • By Malibusmash 8th Aug 18, 2:53 PM
    • 78 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Malibusmash
    I don’t know what to do.
    Originally posted by chichi1978
    Write a letter to the actual Landlord (you'll find his address on your Tenancy Agreement - it will be under the 'Address for service under Section 47 & 48 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987), saying:-

    Dear Mr Landlord,

    I'm writing to inform you that I will not be staying on at the property under a Statutory Periodic Tenancy after the Fixed-Term has ended, neither would I like to enter into another Fixed-Term and I will be providing vacant possession on 19th September 2018.

    Please let your Agency know that I do not need to provide them with two months notice, as they have stated.

    Please confirm when you would like to perform the Check-Out etc. etc. etc.
    • chichi1978
    • By chichi1978 8th Aug 18, 4:17 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    chichi1978
    First of all, thank you very much for all the support!! I “won”!

    I am happy with what he answered, but now he says 15th of September (the end date is 19th) why is he pushing it early now? Funnily… to end the contract on the 15th of September, in that case, yes!, we would have to give 2-month notice…

    Can I insist that the end date is 19th of September, or should I be happy with what I achieved?


    His reply:




    The contracted signed between yourselves and us does state that you need to give 2 months’ notice to terminate the tenancy.

    Whether or not that clause is enforceable in court and in either parties best interest is debatable. For the landlord September is a better time to re-let the property than October and I assume that you have something lined up for in September. As such we will take your notice to end the tenancy on the 15th of September.

    Lilla and Marissa – our letting agent and lettings administrator are going to begin re-marketing the property and will be in touch with you directly in due course for viewings.

    I have attached a moving out document for your records. We recommend you follow this to ensure that we are able to complete the deposit refund as quickly as possible. We will need a forwarding address as well as your utility providers.

    Would you also like to book a pre-check out inspection where either party can make any points in advance of you vacating (generally done around 2 weeks prior to vacate).
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 8th Aug 18, 4:27 PM
    • 3,705 Posts
    • 3,509 Thanks
    Comms69
    First of all, thank you very much for all the support!! I “won”!

    I am happy with what he answered, but now he says 15th of September (the end date is 19th) why is he pushing it early now? Funnily… to end the contract on the 15th of September, in that case, yes!, we would have to give 2-month notice…

    Can I insist that the end date is 19th of September, or should I be happy with what I achieved?


    His reply:




    The contracted signed between yourselves and us does state that you need to give 2 months’ notice to terminate the tenancy.

    Whether or not that clause is enforceable in court and in either parties best interest is debatable. For the landlord September is a better time to re-let the property than October and I assume that you have something lined up for in September. As such we will take your notice to end the tenancy on the 15th of September.

    Lilla and Marissa – our letting agent and lettings administrator are going to begin re-marketing the property and will be in touch with you directly in due course for viewings.

    I have attached a moving out document for your records. We recommend you follow this to ensure that we are able to complete the deposit refund as quickly as possible. We will need a forwarding address as well as your utility providers.

    Would you also like to book a pre-check out inspection where either party can make any points in advance of you vacating (generally done around 2 weeks prior to vacate).
    Originally posted by chichi1978
    they don't. the rest sounds reasonable.


    if you need it until the 19th you can stay on, they cannot remove you.
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