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  • FIRST POST
    • Dingaling63_72
    • By Dingaling63_72 8th Aug 18, 10:36 AM
    • 7Posts
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    Dingaling63_72
    Multiple PCNs from VCS for Parking in own Bay
    • #1
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:36 AM
    Multiple PCNs from VCS for Parking in own Bay 8th Aug 18 at 10:36 AM
    Hi guys,

    Apologies if this is covered by the newbies thread, I've had a good look at it but sadly still have a few questions.

    I moved into a new flat in the North West at around 7PM Friday 20th July, with a car park patrolled by VCS. I received the first of (currently) 3 PCNs at 9AM Saturday 21st July. The second PCN was received at 7:15 AM on Saturday 28th July. The 3rd was received today at 7:54 AM.

    I am renting the flat and there was nothing in the lease about having to display a parking permit when parking, neither was anything said to us by the letting agent when viewing the flat. After the second ticket, I managed to speak to the landlord who advised me that I had to speak to the management company to purchase a parking permit for the flat. This permit was purchased on the 27th July, but I have not received it yet. (A fantastic use of 6 but that's another story)

    Sadly I appealed the first 2 tickets before I knew about this forum, and consequently admitted I was the driver. The 3rd ticket has not yet been appealed, and will follow the process on here. The driver on the 3rd instance will not be revealed. For the first 2 appeals I sent relevant extracts of my tenancy agreement, the receipt for paying for the parking pass and pictures of the sheets of paper on my dashboard. Not expecting much going off past experiences on this forum.

    VCS send an NTK to my home address on the 30th July, referencing a PCN dated the 27th July (Does not match any of my PCNs) I have so far only received 1 of the 3. I thought they were supposed to wait a month before sending them?

    I have been posting sheets of paper with the relevant info from my tenancy agreement on the dashboard along with a note explaining the situation, and have not received PCNs on those days despite having no official parking permit in the car. Would this have any effect on their claim?

    Also, the car in the bay next to me has an expired permit yet does not receive tickets. This would have an effect also?

    I am currently speaking to my landlord to get a copy of his lease to see if his lease has it stipulated that he must display a permit when parked in the bay (our TA did not) - So far he is looking to be uncooperative but I shall see how it goes.

    I am also drafting an email to the Estates management company asking them to null the charges as well. I saw on this forum a message that someone sent to their EM company basically revoking the right to patrol their land (the bay) and threatening action if they do. Could someone have a look at mine and see if it's ok? [link attached when I am allowed]

    My next steps are as follows from what I understand: could anyone confrim if this is the correct thing I should be doing?
    1) Wait for the remaining 2 NTKs to arrive for the other 2 tickets
    2) Appeal 3rd parking ticket when it does on the VCS website
    3) Write to Landlord RE lease
    4) Write to EM asking to null charges
    5) Wait for court summons

    Cheers
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 8th Aug 18, 10:53 AM
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    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:53 AM
    • #2
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:53 AM
    Naming the driver is not fatal in "own space" cases, and is normaly to the motorist's advantage, especially if it ever gets to court. It is much easier to say to a judge, "there is nothing in my lease about permits" than, try to explain how The Driver is covered by "your lease."

    That being the case, why is the landlord telling you to pay for a permit that you don't need? You are being ripped off.
    I would ask for your money back and put in writing to both the landlord and PPC that you do not agree to the scheme and any attempt to ticket your car in your demised space will constitute trespass.

    You should also complain to the agent that you are being harassed, and they had a duty of care to inform you of anything that will affect your quiet enjoyment of the property. Had you known about this before hand you would not have rented the place.
    Can you cancel the agreement and move out without penalty as the rental was mis-sold in my opinion.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 08-08-2018 at 10:59 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 8th Aug 18, 11:01 AM
    • 3,784 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    • #3
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:01 AM
    • #3
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:01 AM
    Are there signs around the car park? And what do they say about tenants, visitors, and residents.

    The signs are all if you don't have ownership of the space.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to RTFM - the Civil Procedure Rules
    2. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend- See #1
    3. Failing to RTFCL - the Court letters
    4. Template defences that say nothing - See #1
    5. Forgetting about the Witness Statement - See #3
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 8th Aug 18, 11:03 AM
    • 3,458 Posts
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    The Slithy Tove
    • #4
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:03 AM
    • #4
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:03 AM
    Do not pay money to park in a space that you already have permission for. What on earth are you doing paying for a permit you have no requirement for? Return the permit and demand your money back.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 8th Aug 18, 11:04 AM
    • 11,056 Posts
    • 11,020 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #5
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:04 AM
    • #5
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:04 AM
    I appealed the first 2 tickets before I knew about this forum, and consequently admitted I was the driver

    No worries, it is far better if this reaches court to defend as driver and keeper.

    There is plenty of stuff on Parking Prankster about "own space" tickets.
    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/11/residential-parking.html

    What does your AST say about needing a permit? What does your landlord's lease say? To whom did you pay 6.00? Who has issued the permit? Does it bear the name of the PPC?

    Parking tickets to residents in "own space" situation are nearly always a scam, read up on "Primacy of Contract", read Jopson v Homeguard, read Danielsan's post on this forum.


    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the House of Commons recently

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41 recently.

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.7
    Last edited by The Deep; 08-08-2018 at 11:13 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Dingaling63_72
    • By Dingaling63_72 8th Aug 18, 12:29 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Dingaling63_72
    • #6
    • 8th Aug 18, 12:29 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Aug 18, 12:29 PM
    Hi guys,

    Thanks all very much for your help. Very reassuring to hear all of this!
    I'll now answer your questions from the top to bottom:

    - That being the case, why is the landlord telling you to pay for a permit that you don't need?
    I get the impression that they don't really know the ins and outs of it (it's a student flat and they haven't had a car in there before) so they're just going along with general advice. Annoying.

    - I would ask for your money back and put in writing to both the landlord and PPC that you do not agree to the scheme and any attempt to ticket your car in your demised space will constitute trespass.
    Already being done, Please see screenshot here and critique: imgur (dot) com (slash) Tcbipfi

    - Can you cancel the agreement and move out without penalty as the rental was mis-sold in my opinion.
    Sadly I don't think this would be easy as In my (inexperienced) opinion, this would not be enough of an inconvenience to break the contract without recourse.

    - Are there signs around the car park? And what do they say about tenants, visitors, and residents.
    There are, please see here for a picture taken helpfully by VCS: imgur (dot) com (slash) V6TlFVW
    - The signs are all if you don't have ownership of the space.
    Not sure what you mean by this? Should all be only?

    - What does your AST say about needing a permit?
    Please see here for the only mention of the parking spot on the AST - Clause 15 is regarding termination of the tenancy:
    imgur (dot) com (slash) AJAH2q2

    - What does your landlord's lease say?
    Still trying to find this one out - will update as I get the info

    - To whom did you pay 6.00?
    It was paid to the Estate Management company to "cover costs of postage" of the parking pass.

    - Who has issued the permit?
    I think it's VCS themselves, but I've ordered it via the EM company.

    - Does it bear the name of the PPC?
    It does yes.
    Last edited by Dingaling63_72; 08-08-2018 at 1:26 PM. Reason: add more info
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 8th Aug 18, 1:25 PM
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    IamEmanresu
    • #7
    • 8th Aug 18, 1:25 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Aug 18, 1:25 PM
    - Are there signs around the car park? And what do they say about tenants, visitors, and residents.
    There are, please see here for a picture taken helpfully by VCS: imgur (dot) com (slash) V6TlFVW
    - The signs are all if you don't have ownership of the space.
    Not sure what you mean by this? Should all be only?
    Very useful.

    Signs require "permit holders" to park in "designated" bay which in your case is explained in the AST. If the car was there, then the ticket was issued not for trespass but for breach of contract - the VCS one and not the AST one.

    The issue if this goes to court will be primacy of contract. Did the AST contract override the VCS contract. Most judges will say yes but you do have the odd one that goes against the flow.

    If you were always parking in the designated bay then have a go at the management company basically until they are either sick of you or cancel - whichever comes first.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to RTFM - the Civil Procedure Rules
    2. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend- See #1
    3. Failing to RTFCL - the Court letters
    4. Template defences that say nothing - See #1
    5. Forgetting about the Witness Statement - See #3
    • Dingaling63_72
    • By Dingaling63_72 8th Aug 18, 1:51 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Dingaling63_72
    • #8
    • 8th Aug 18, 1:51 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Aug 18, 1:51 PM
    If you were always parking in the designated bay then have a go at the management company basically until they are either sick of you or cancel - whichever comes first.

    Yeah will do - Obviously will argue that my tenancy agreement overrides the VCS contract, is there anything else In your opinion should be pointing out to them?

    Edit - Also read Daniel san's post - Not sure if I've found the right one as it looks like he owns his flat - but I've done some digging and don't think it applies to me (would have been great if they were owned by the same company!)

    Thanks
    Last edited by Dingaling63_72; 08-08-2018 at 2:15 PM. Reason: add more info
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 8th Aug 18, 2:52 PM
    • 4,203 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    • #9
    • 8th Aug 18, 2:52 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Aug 18, 2:52 PM
    Any chance you can NOT obscure those adresses so much?

    All you need to do is write "hxxp" instead of "http" and it will work. Nothing more. We can then post the fixed URLs
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 8th Aug 18, 3:12 PM
    • 3,784 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    The AST was not conditional. It did not qualify anything other than being in the designated bay so your argument is that there could never be consideration in the form of parking from VCS as you already had parking as part of your AST.

    Two people cannot "sell" the same thing. Your landlord "sold" you parking as part of the AST and you were not informed it was conditional (until later). Once you have the permit, then the contract changes so you might want to see if you can duck the permit all together. In situations with permit parking, going permitless is the best option if it can be achieved.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to RTFM - the Civil Procedure Rules
    2. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend- See #1
    3. Failing to RTFCL - the Court letters
    4. Template defences that say nothing - See #1
    5. Forgetting about the Witness Statement - See #3
    • Dingaling63_72
    • By Dingaling63_72 8th Aug 18, 3:37 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Dingaling63_72
    Any chance you can NOT obscure those adresses so much?

    All you need to do is write "hxxp" instead of "http" and it will work. Nothing more. We can then post the fixed URLs
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    Apologies - here you go:

    AST relevant to parking - hxxps://i.imgur.com/AJAH2q2.png

    Picture of parking signs - hxxps://i.imgur.com/V6TlFVW.png

    Email to Property management company - hxxps://i.imgur.com/Tcbipfi.png
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 8th Aug 18, 3:53 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    AST relevant to parking - https://i.imgur.com/AJAH2q2.png

    Picture of parking signs - https://i.imgur.com/V6TlFVW.png

    Email to Property management company - https://i.imgur.com/Tcbipfi.png
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 9th Aug 18, 11:37 AM
    • 4,400 Posts
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    Half_way
    It's absolutely critical that you contact the management company, and demand your money back for any permit, state you are withdrawing from any permit scheme, and at the same time raise your objections
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Dingaling63_72
    • By Dingaling63_72 11th Sep 18, 3:46 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Dingaling63_72
    Hi all,

    Right - Couple of updates for you all -

    I have since gone fully through the appeals process and send VCS all the required info - surprise surprise the appeal was denied, but as a "gesture of goodwill" the charges for all 3 PCNs were dropped to 20 each.

    I since went to the property management agency, and got a refund for the parking permit. I also asked them to cancel the tickets, and while they agreed to cancel the 3rd one, the 2nd "could be cancelled but we will have to see" and the 1st definitely could not be cancelled, even after extensive persuasion and filling them in with the details, their response was "there are signs up in the car park, you shouldn't have parked there without a pass"

    I've also received NTDs via post from VCS for all 3 PCNs. do these now override the NTK received earlier or not? Thinking if I can use the fact that the NTKs are not PoFA compliant as a (potential) defence.

    Thoughts?
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 11th Sep 18, 4:03 PM
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    IamEmanresu
    Thinking if I can use the fact that the NTKs are not PoFA compliant as a (potential) defence.
    This is for where the driver is not known. You actually want the driver to be known as the driver has a contract that overrides the VCS one.

    Get back to the MA again. If you can withdraw then clearly you have primacy for your own space. So it is legally nonsense to say the others can't be cancelled and the MA are interfering with your lease.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to RTFM - the Civil Procedure Rules
    2. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend- See #1
    3. Failing to RTFCL - the Court letters
    4. Template defences that say nothing - See #1
    5. Forgetting about the Witness Statement - See #3
    • Dingaling63_72
    • By Dingaling63_72 11th Sep 18, 4:23 PM
    • 7 Posts
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    Dingaling63_72
    This is for where the driver is not known. You actually want the driver to be known as the driver has a contract that overrides the VCS one.

    Get back to the MA again. If you can withdraw then clearly you have primacy for your own space. So it is legally nonsense to say the others can't be cancelled and the MA are interfering with your lease.
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    Thanks for the advice. Would this work?

    [Name of contact at estate management company],

    Thanks for your response. Please let me know when VCS has cancelled the other 2 tickets.

    I would like to draw your attention to the fact that my AST does not mention anything about having to display a valid permit to park, which I signed before even arriving at the property. The parking signs placed around the [PROPERTY CAR PARK] interfere with the signed AST, and under primacy of contract they are rendered unenforceable. Furthermore, if you can withdraw some of the tickets then clearly I have primacy over my own space, and you are interfering with my AST.
    Please cancel the first ticket.

    Regards
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 11th Sep 18, 6:19 PM
    • 38,081 Posts
    • 85,418 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Strongly hint to the MA that if this goes to court you will require their head honcho to appear as a witness for the claimant so you can cross examine them about the AST.

    You need to hammer home that the AST has primacy of contact and already offers you parking. Getting a refund for the permits is of great help as it proves they are not needed and not part of the AST and are unnecessary as you already have an unfettered right to park.

    Please do get your MP involved with this, explaining how you have a lease to a property with car parking space, but an unregulated third party scammer (MPs own words) is trying to operate a for profit business on your demised space and charge you for using it.
    Not all MPs are as clued up as others and need this scam explain to them in simple terms.

    These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

    ''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

    These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he/she wants further information about this scam.

    It wouldn't hurt to show the MA what our government thinks about these scammers concerning their choice of car park monitoring.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 11-09-2018 at 6:23 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Dingaling63_72
    • By Dingaling63_72 11th Sep 18, 9:58 PM
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    Dingaling63_72
    Strongly hint to the MA that if this goes to court you will require their head honcho to appear as a witness for the claimant so you can cross examine them about the AST.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Thanks for this, Fuitcake. by strongly hint, should I say it explicitly? I'm not exactly sure what's best practice here - If I explicitly say "if this gets to court your MD will be required to appear as a witness and explain why the PCN contract takes precidence over my AST" will it be taken as threatening behaviour and come off badly for me? Any tips on which way to phrase it? Nuance isn't my strong suit
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 11th Sep 18, 10:07 PM
    • 38,081 Posts
    • 85,418 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Just say it.

    My AST says this ... I require the MA's head to be in court to say why he/she thinks this does not have supremacy of contract over a third party described by our MPs as scammers. Please supply me with dates when he/she will not be available so I can inform the court.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 11-09-2018 at 10:09 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Sep 18, 10:07 PM
    • 20,734 Posts
    • 32,658 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Ask who will represent them when the court requires them to nominate and to provide details of when they might not be available (within the next 6 months) to attend for cross-examination. You are certain the court will deem them pivotal to this case, and will adjust their scheduling to ensure their attendance as a key witness.

    Much is bluff, but let them work that out. If they can't, they might just demand the PPC drops it. If they try to call your bluff, you try to get the court to call them - costs you nowt. Who blinks first!
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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