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    • Goldcrypto
    • By Goldcrypto 7th Aug 18, 11:50 PM
    • 62Posts
    • 5Thanks
    Goldcrypto
    Current property owner and first time buyer - help to buy conflict
    • #1
    • 7th Aug 18, 11:50 PM
    Current property owner and first time buyer - help to buy conflict 7th Aug 18 at 11:50 PM
    My brother bought his first property in his 20's in London and now in 30's. This was bought as an investment as a buy to let property. Now he has never had a property of his own as a residential to live as he preferred renting (the property investment helped him gain good capital growth over the last 10 years and the rental paid down mortgage and covered most of his rental costs for his own living) as he liked be flexible to be able to choose new properties and move around with his work that has quite a bit of international travel.

    Now the 20% loan assistance for first time buyers would not be available to (despite him not actually having a home to live as his main residency) as he would still be classed as someone owning real estate plus he would be hit by the new increased stamp duty costs for a second plus property etc - all seems unfair as those companies with 10+ do not get hit (ie big investors), while the small guy gets hit and plus some people do not like to invest their money in stock market etc, would be fairer if government allowed 1 residential as main residence and at least 1 investment buy-to-let (for those also to be able to claim first time buyer assistance and not have to pay increased stamp duty costs).

    My question (given the background): His girlfriend would qualify for the first time buyer and would want the 20% loan available for first time buyers. Now for land registry when she buys the name would have to be in her name etc but if my brother wanted to give her 50% of down payment and gift her for time been half of the mortgage payments so in x number of years there could be a legal contract she signs (at purchase) that states he has half ownership claim etc? Is there a way to structure this with a lawyer in some way?

    He would not be willing to sell the London property as growth has been too good and expects continued strong capital growth. Even if that was not the case, it is in a very hot rental location so provides great rental income.
    Last edited by Goldcrypto; 07-08-2018 at 11:53 PM.
Page 3
    • Goldcrypto
    • By Goldcrypto 8th Aug 18, 11:12 AM
    • 62 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Goldcrypto
    That's short enough to read. I've cherry picked what is relevant,

    It doesn't matter if he still owns it. It's simple maths. He has already owned two properties so he's not a first time buyer.
    Originally posted by Doozergirl
    Does not matter if he is not a first time buyer. Government assistance loan and no extra SDLT is available for everyone as long as do not own another property. That aspect has nothing to do with not been a first time buyer.

    Although, I am failing to see what your posts add here? They are looking at options available to them under the current framework. So no help with question!
    • tlc678910
    • By tlc678910 8th Aug 18, 11:13 AM
    • 628 Posts
    • 1,043 Thanks
    tlc678910
    Hi,
    I think you are overestimating the benefit of the help to buy equity loan in your brothers situation. It is designed to help people stretch to a property that they could not otherwise afford and it sounds like your brother can afford up to the maximium value.

    After 5 years interest becomes payable. If you buy the extra portion you pay 20% of the current value so if the value has gone up the 20% will cost more. It is also only available on new builds cutting down buying options. New builds often fall in value and we often see threads on here of people that want to sell their second hand new build but can't due to negative equity.

    Re post 10 : your brother would not have been able to use the help to buy equity loan if it had existed as it cannot be used for a property to be let out.

    To benefit from the stamp duty exemption and help to buy, your brother's girlfriend can buy alone. Your brother could invest in other things. If they marry in the future both properties will be in the melting pot of assets.

    I take your point about big business evading tax but I think when there is a shortage of properties to provide homes it is fair enough that the government isn't providing assistance for people to have two.

    Tlc
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 8th Aug 18, 11:14 AM
    • 6,288 Posts
    • 13,409 Thanks
    marliepanda

    Although, I am failing to see what your posts add here? They are looking at options available to them under the current framework. So no help with question!
    Originally posted by Goldcrypto
    Let 'him' crack on with it.

    Are you normally so invested in your brothers life and affairs?
    • Goldcrypto
    • By Goldcrypto 8th Aug 18, 11:14 AM
    • 62 Posts
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    Goldcrypto
    Qualify for what?

    .
    Originally posted by sal_III
    Corporations that qualify for no SDLT.
    • Goldcrypto
    • By Goldcrypto 8th Aug 18, 11:16 AM
    • 62 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Goldcrypto
    Ah the old classic asks for advice, rejects all advice that give the answer .
    Originally posted by ashe
    What is the so called answer?
    • bouicca21
    • By bouicca21 8th Aug 18, 11:17 AM
    • 3,810 Posts
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    bouicca21
    I think OP is on the wrong forum, he needs to be on millionairesrus.com, or maybe wannabepropertybaron.com might be more suitable.
    • Goldcrypto
    • By Goldcrypto 8th Aug 18, 11:20 AM
    • 62 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Goldcrypto
    I'm getting the feeling I've read this posters threads before,not maybe under this user name but he's as insistent as the guy yesterday with the renovation project
    Originally posted by need an answer
    I can certainly assure you that I have not posted on these forums before. Only forums I have been a member of are investing and equity markets related. Renovation would not be at the top of my skill set or of interest to me.
    • Goldcrypto
    • By Goldcrypto 8th Aug 18, 11:24 AM
    • 62 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Goldcrypto
    I think OP is on the wrong forum, he needs to be on millionairesrus.com, or maybe wannabepropertybaron.com might be more suitable.
    Originally posted by bouicca21
    I think many Londoners (despite maybe not feeling it or able to have access to the equity as tied up) are probably paper millionaires with the property rises. Sitting in their main asset.

    However, despite your humour attempt, I think you could possibly be correct from most of the replies. Clearly not investors.
    Last edited by Goldcrypto; 08-08-2018 at 11:26 AM.
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 8th Aug 18, 11:26 AM
    • 25,548 Posts
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    Doozergirl
    Does not matter if he is not a first time buyer. Government assistance loan and no extra SDLT is available for everyone as long as do not own another property. That aspect has nothing to do with not been a first time buyer.

    Although, I am failing to see what your posts add here? They are looking at options available to them under the current framework. So no help with question!
    Originally posted by Goldcrypto
    So 'his girlfriend' isn't interested in the first time buyer's SDLT relief? He's missing another trick there; I thought he had this sorted, as successful property investor and owner of one property.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • Goldcrypto
    • By Goldcrypto 8th Aug 18, 11:33 AM
    • 62 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Goldcrypto
    So 'his girlfriend' isn't interested in the first time buyer's SDLT relief? .
    Originally posted by Doozergirl
    We have already established they would have no option but to pay the increased SDLT, if he was to purchase initially together or later he bought an equity portion and they started a new joint mortgage together. The only option would be looking at making below market offer when hunting for property to help offset the some increases in SDLT. Save on the purchase. Although most property investors know that usually the profit is made on the purchase price.

    Although, again, I fail to see how you're contributing to the question?
    Last edited by Goldcrypto; 08-08-2018 at 11:42 AM.
    • Goldcrypto
    • By Goldcrypto 8th Aug 18, 11:41 AM
    • 62 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Goldcrypto
    Hi,
    I think you are overestimating the benefit of the help to buy equity loan in your brothers situation. It is designed to help people stretch to a property that they could not otherwise afford and it sounds like your brother can afford up to the maximium value.

    After 5 years interest becomes payable. If you buy the extra portion you pay 20% of the current value so if the value has gone up the 20% will cost more. It is also only available on new builds cutting down buying options. New builds often fall in value and we often see threads on here of people that want to sell their second hand new build but can't due to negative equity.

    Re post 10 : your brother would not have been able to use the help to buy equity loan if it had existed as it cannot be used for a property to be let out.

    To benefit from the stamp duty exemption and help to buy, your brother's girlfriend can buy alone. Your brother could invest in other things. If they marry in the future both properties will be in the melting pot of assets.

    I take your point about big business evading tax but I think when there is a shortage of properties to provide homes it is fair enough that the government isn't providing assistance for people to have two.

    Tlc
    Originally posted by tlc678910
    Agree. Am probably overlooking the HTB L. As is only for new builds they would be paying market rate anyway. They maybe best forgetting it and just do a joint property purchase from start and looking at making a competitive offer on an existing built property to not have to worry about the extra SDLT etc. They have plenty of time to sit, research, make offers.
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 8th Aug 18, 11:42 AM
    • 25,548 Posts
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    Doozergirl
    We have already established they would have no option if he was to purchase initially together or later he bought an equity portion and they started a new joint mortgage together. The only option would be looking at making below market offer when hunting for property to help offset the some increases in SDLT. Save on the purchase. Although most property investors know that usually the profit is made on the purchase price.

    Although, again, I fail to see how you're contributing to the question?
    Originally posted by Goldcrypto
    Ah, we've established that your plan isn't going to work as he likes his money more than his girlfriend. I missed that. My bad.

    He must have decided that because someone here told him he couldn't have his cake and eat it.

    Carry on. I'll chip in when I can be helpful.
    Last edited by Doozergirl; 08-08-2018 at 11:46 AM.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • sal_III
    • By sal_III 8th Aug 18, 11:45 AM
    • 574 Posts
    • 560 Thanks
    sal_III
    Corporations that qualify for no SDLT.
    Originally posted by Goldcrypto
    Where did you get the idea that corporations pay no SDLT? If anything they pay much more under some conditions, or at least the same as private individuals and are not eligible for any reliefs that I know of. Happy to be corrected with specific information.

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/stamp-duty-land-tax-corporate-bodies

    Does not matter if he is not a first time buyer. Government assistance loan and no extra SDLT is available for everyone as long as do not own another property. That aspect has nothing to do with not been a first time buyer.

    Although, I am failing to see what your posts add here? They are looking at options available to them under the current framework. So no help with question!
    Originally posted by Goldcrypto
    First of all - the eligibility for SDLT relief and Equity loan is different under "first time buyer". The former is lost regardless whether you still own the property or it was disposed off, provided you owned a property at any point in the past. The latter can be "regained" if the existing property is disposed at point of completion on the new property.

    And you keep insisting that your brother will have to pay EXTRA tax. Which is far from truth, he will be paying the REGULAR rate of tax.
    • Goldcrypto
    • By Goldcrypto 8th Aug 18, 11:53 AM
    • 62 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Goldcrypto
    Ah, we've established that your plan isn't going to work as he likes his money more than his girlfriend. I missed that. My bad.

    He must have decided that because someone here told him he couldn't have his cake and eat it.

    Carry on. I'll chip in when I can be helpful.
    Originally posted by Doozergirl
    The question related to his investment options is just that , investment options! Not relationship waffle. Better think of them and X and Y looking to do investment Z. Do not get fixed on their sex and background. Or what colour dress she maybe wearing on day of purchase or if she gets her nails painted. Only the technical aspects to the question.

    Thanks again.
    • Goldcrypto
    • By Goldcrypto 8th Aug 18, 12:04 PM
    • 62 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Goldcrypto
    Where did you get the idea that corporations pay no SDLT?
    Originally posted by sal_III
    'As the proposals stand, individuals who hold more than 15 properties may not have to pay the tax - and companies holding at least that number will be exempt from stamp duty when they buy more.'

    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-3490520/How-landlords-using-companies-dodge-stamp-duty-crackdown-property-purchases.html

    There was legislation proposed when I last read into this. However, they may not have passed it as I can not currently see anything on the Gov site, so I could be wrong about it standing today. Not sure if any legislation incentives were passed to favour large corporations with a bulk of properties?

    Regardless, he would not benefit from that.
    Last edited by Goldcrypto; 08-08-2018 at 12:07 PM.
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 8th Aug 18, 2:01 PM
    • 25,548 Posts
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    Doozergirl
    'As the proposals stand, individuals who hold more than 15 properties may not have to pay the tax - and companies holding at least that number will be exempt from stamp duty when they buy more.'

    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-3490520/How-landlords-using-companies-dodge-stamp-duty-crackdown-property-purchases.html

    There was legislation proposed when I last read into this. However, they may not have passed it as I can not currently see anything on the Gov site, so I could be wrong about it standing today. Not sure if any legislation incentives were passed to favour large corporations with a bulk of properties?

    Regardless, he would not benefit from that.
    Originally posted by Goldcrypto
    So, referring back to when you were specifically asking a question in bold about what successful property investors do and I answered and told you that they pay the full amount of Stamp Duty?

    All this bluster and the source of your complaint comes not from experience, not even the .gov website, but from a news article written before the SDLT changes were introduced.

    Welcome to the world of being a successful property developer and paying your taxes where due.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • Goldcrypto
    • By Goldcrypto 8th Aug 18, 5:18 PM
    • 62 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Goldcrypto
    So, referring back to when you were specifically asking a question in bold about what successful property investors do and I answered and told you that they pay the full amount of Stamp Duty?

    All this bluster and the source of your complaint comes not from experience, not even the .gov website, but from a news article written before the SDLT changes were introduced.

    Welcome to the world of being a successful property developer and paying your taxes where due.
    Originally posted by Doozergirl
    More useless waffle and unrelated nonsense. I was highlighting to another poster what I knew about corporations at the time of the announcements. It serves no purpose to look into that avenue what the current criteria is. It does not affect them if it was 10 properties or 15 or 30 or x,y,z requirement for the company. He is not setting up a company - he would not have that opportunity.

    Where did property developer come from?

    All you have done is offer nothing of use to the question. *How greedy investors are equating them to benefit cheats? (erm no people are just making honest, hard working, humble investments for themselves, families and future pension plans) * Your political view on real estate economics (joke) * You need to pay SDLT (erm, obviously).

    Nothing of use to the question on structuring options or other opportunities to consider. Nada. Possibly if you used your time economically productive, instead of adding these negative posts, then you might be adding more to your investment options.

    Here is an idea. Go and comment on some other post, as am sure your merry band of cheer leaders will continue to add to your 'thanks' ( thus giving further a continued delusional bubble to your self importance of your posts), regardless of the unrelated waffle you have added to this thread, while painting their nails.

    To those that have added useful advice to the question, thanks, and others looking to stick to the question will be welcome to add anything.
    Last edited by Goldcrypto; 08-08-2018 at 5:51 PM.
    • studentguy
    • By studentguy 8th Aug 18, 8:46 PM
    • 159 Posts
    • 82 Thanks
    studentguy
    This has got to be a joke post surely, no one can be this deluded.

    Stop trying to play the system and pay your tax. Its simple as that. The tax breaks were put in so that people who are buying their first home get some help, not so someone who has a rental income several times the cost of a mortgage on a property can maintain his investment portfolio. There are not enough houses for people to get on the ladder, the Govt are purposefully penalising those who are using houses as an investment rather than a home, so if you want to continue to do it you have to play by the rules.

    You and your brother are part of the problem. It's disgraceful and frankly immoral that you're trying to game the system, and if you do so, I really hope you get caught and fined to hell, it couldn't happen to nicer people.
    Despite my name, I'm not a student any more
    • Goldcrypto
    • By Goldcrypto 9th Aug 18, 6:08 AM
    • 62 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Goldcrypto
    This has got to be a joke post surely, no one can be this deluded.

    Stop trying to play the system and pay your tax. .
    Originally posted by studentguy
    What tax are they not looking at paying? What are you talking about?

    The question started of with the simple premise that 1 person is a homeowner but the partner (not married) is not and a first time buyer and not a property owner. Simply asking what the options are available to them under the current property legislation. The smart thing to do is ask (professionals / forums etc) to see what options are available to them! They wanted to see if they can qualify for anything. You like many others have had nothing of use.

    Currently we have 1. They buy together from the start a undervalue property and have no option to apply for any loan plus pay the additional SDLT. This property becomes their primary residential. 2. She buys herself (she has saved, has a good career and can do so without the partner) without him and then is entitled to all options of HTB L and not additional SDLT. If later they both want to be on the land registry then he can remortgage his property, buy a portion of her equitymof the property and they can both own the home as their primary residential. At that point she pays her HTB L back and they pay the additional SDLT at that stage. Although, as pointed out by actually useful comments, this may not be that useful anyway as limits them to new builds, properties at current market rates etc.

    So what is your problem with that? They are not trying to avoid anything! Or are the type of people to do anything wrong. Hence, the reason for asking the questions. Simply looking at options available. Lets not forget this couple are not married and who knows if will marry or what future relationship holds. They are correct at least looking into what options they are 'allowed' and makes most 'economic' sense.


    You and your brother are part of the problem. It's disgraceful and frankly immoral
    With me? Why would I be the problem (although I completely disagree the claim that some small number of people like my brother owning 1 property investment alone are the problem). Or just another poorly thought reply? I do not own any investment property? Only the property as my residence as unlike my brother my career does not require moving overseas as much.

    So you feel my brother should never have got on the property ladder as an investor with one property? As he could not lay down roots with a primary residence. So not doing so, he should have waited , god knows how many years until he knew gain he was going to be based in London and not out of UK, and in that time he should have continued working hard and saved cash earning no interest in the bank while London property prices continue to skyrocket (overseas investors flooding in!) so he is priced out of the market when he comes to buy? Or you and others did not think about that? In the meantime it allowed him to get into the property market and provided a service as a landlord for other professional people to live there.

    The property was not left empty like many overseas investors buying bulk properties in London and now other major UK cities. Many of those overseas investors have no interest to rent out as they are simply looking at storing their assets in a stable market and possibly looking for capital growth only with no interest rental yield. Those are the problems foe the UK property market. Vast empty residential buildings that could be used. It is overseas investors and those with vast property portfolios the government should be looking at controlling more. Not the hard working British person or retired couple who manages to get themselves into a position to buy just 1 other investment property for their retirement, plan to pass on in their family or rent out and provide a useful service. Some level of investment is healthy for real estate market.

    The point is many of these posts (only a few have provided useful factual information to the question) are just irrelevant views of people and not helpful. Simply they had a question and best way is to offer a solution. So answers are they can do option A or option B or option C but can not do option D etc Simply outlining the solutions without any background views. They are two hard working British individual professionals who continue to make a lot of sacrifices for their time with their careers and savings so as 'Dave Ramsay' says they can 'live like no one else'.
    Last edited by Goldcrypto; 09-08-2018 at 6:20 AM.
    • deannatrois
    • By deannatrois 9th Aug 18, 6:21 AM
    • 5,534 Posts
    • 7,769 Thanks
    deannatrois
    Bored now.
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