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    • greyville
    • By greyville 7th Aug 18, 2:50 PM
    • 70Posts
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    greyville
    My friend's tenancy problem
    • #1
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:50 PM
    My friend's tenancy problem 7th Aug 18 at 2:50 PM
    My friend's house rental was due to expire on August 7.

    The landlady said in writing it would be fine to end the tenancy on July 18 - so long as my friend paid rent up to August 7.

    Her letter states: "Any overpayment of rent will be refunded when the tenancy ends. I can do a bank transfer the same day."

    The landlady has since said in writing no rent is due to be refunded. My friend feels she is owed 20 days of rent.

    Does my friend have any redress? Does the written assurance from the landlady override the contract?
Page 1
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Aug 18, 2:51 PM
    • 3,549 Posts
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    Comms69
    • #2
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:51 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:51 PM
    What overpayment?
    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 7th Aug 18, 2:57 PM
    • 4,655 Posts
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    Cakeguts
    • #3
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:57 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:57 PM
    The tenancy ended on 7th August so there is no overpayment.
    • sparkey1
    • By sparkey1 7th Aug 18, 2:58 PM
    • 423 Posts
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    sparkey1
    • #4
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:58 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:58 PM
    So the rent was due to Aug 7th, and she paid to 7th August. The fact that she has left early doesn't make it an overpayment as rent was due to the 7th.

    If she had paid to the 10th August, there would be an overpayment.

    However, I suspect your friend is assuming that because she has it in writing that any overpayment will be refunded she has assumed that that would be the money from 18th July to 7th August. The drawback was that was the money that was contractually due so its not an overpayment.

    Personally I suspect the landlord is trying it on. Did she rent the house to anyone else between, 18 Jul and 7th Aug. If she did, then you qualify for a refund without doubt for the days rented. For a fuller answer would need to know.


    Start date of the tenancy?

    The end date on the agreement?

    When did your friend give notice?
    Last edited by sparkey1; 07-08-2018 at 3:03 PM.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Aug 18, 3:01 PM
    • 3,549 Posts
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    Comms69
    • #5
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:01 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:01 PM
    So the rent was due to Aug 7th, so the fact that she has left early doesn't make it an overpayment.


    If she had paid to the 10th August, there would be an overpayment.


    However, I suspect your friend is assuming that because she has it in writing that any overpayment will be refunded she has assumed that that would be the money from 18th July to 7th August. The drawback was that was the money that was contractually due so its not an overpayment.


    Personally I suspect the landlord is trying it on. Did she rent the house to anyone else between, 18 Jul and 7th Aug. If she did, then you qualify for a refund without doubt for the days rented.
    Originally posted by sparkey1
    Not necessarily.


    An early surrender can come with any terms the LL likes. Including a payment of x amount.
    • greyville
    • By greyville 7th Aug 18, 3:03 PM
    • 70 Posts
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    greyville
    • #6
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:03 PM
    • #6
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:03 PM
    My friend interpreted the wording of the landlady's email to mean 'if you leave three weeks early, pay me four weeks and I'll refund you three weeks'.

    The wording of the letter suggests the landlady would refund my friend, but could it be that she's just been very clever with the wording?
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Aug 18, 3:04 PM
    • 3,549 Posts
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    Comms69
    • #7
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:04 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:04 PM
    My friend interpreted the wording of the landlady's email to mean 'if you leave three weeks early, pay me four weeks and I'll refund you three weeks'.

    The wording of the letter suggests the landlady would refund my friend, but could it be that she's just been very clever with the wording?
    Originally posted by greyville
    Does any of that actually make sense when you read it back...


    Come on, if you think it does - you shouldn't be advising your friend.
    • greyville
    • By greyville 7th Aug 18, 3:07 PM
    • 70 Posts
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    greyville
    • #8
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:07 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:07 PM
    Did she rent the house to anyone else between, 18 Jul and 7th Aug.
    Originally posted by sparkey1
    Yes


    When did your friend give notice?
    Originally posted by sparkey1
    I'm not sure but I'll find out.
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 7th Aug 18, 3:09 PM
    • 6,255 Posts
    • 13,366 Thanks
    marliepanda
    • #9
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:09 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:09 PM
    My friend's house rental was due to expire on August 7.

    The landlady said in writing it would be fine to end the tenancy on July 18 - so long as my friend paid rent up to August 7.

    Her letter states: "Any overpayment of rent will be refunded when the tenancy ends. I can do a bank transfer the same day."

    The landlady has since said in writing no rent is due to be refunded. My friend feels she is owed 20 days of rent.

    Does my friend have any redress? Does the written assurance from the landlady override the contract?
    Originally posted by greyville
    Not sure where the confusion is.

    I mean the email is totally pointless as it makes no changes to anything, as the landlady cant stop anyone leaving, and I am not sure to what benefit an early tenancy 'end date' makes, but there is no indication in that email that she didnt want the full rent paying.
    • greyville
    • By greyville 7th Aug 18, 3:10 PM
    • 70 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    greyville
    Does any of that actually make sense when you read it back...


    Come on, if you think it does - you shouldn't be advising your friend.
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Let me simplify:

    August 7 - day tenancy was due to end
    July 18 - day she moved out.
    August 7 - day rent was paid up to
    There are 20 days between July 18 and August 7. My friend feels she's due a rent refund for those days.
    • greyville
    • By greyville 7th Aug 18, 3:12 PM
    • 70 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    greyville
    Not sure where the confusion is.

    I mean the email is totally pointless as it makes no changes to anything, as the landlady cant stop anyone leaving, and I am not sure to what benefit an early tenancy 'end date' makes, but there is no indication in that email that she didnt want the full rent paying.
    Originally posted by marliepanda
    Another quote from the letter:

    "I'm happy to let the lettings agency know the apartment is available. If it's then rented, I'm happy to save you additional costs."

    The new tenancy began the day after my friend left...at the point she was still paying rent for.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Aug 18, 3:14 PM
    • 3,549 Posts
    • 3,396 Thanks
    Comms69
    Let me simplify:

    August 7 - day tenancy was due to end
    July 18 - day she moved out.
    August 7 - day rent was paid up to
    There are 20 days between July 18 and August 7. My friend feels she's due a rent refund for those days.
    Originally posted by greyville
    Shes not.


    The landlady said, pay the rent up until August 7th; your friend did.


    (now hypothetically you can say that a deed of surrender needs to be written and witnessed. - but is your friend going to go to court to get that money back?)
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Aug 18, 3:16 PM
    • 3,549 Posts
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    Comms69
    Another quote from the letter:

    "I'm happy to let the lettings agency know the apartment is available. If it's then rented, I'm happy to save you additional costs."

    The new tenancy began the day after my friend left...at the point she was still paying rent for.
    Originally posted by greyville


    ... Can you just post the whole thing and save everyone a load of wasted time....
    • saajan_12
    • By saajan_12 7th Aug 18, 3:21 PM
    • 1,357 Posts
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    saajan_12
    The landlady said in writing it would be fine to end the tenancy on July 18 - so long as my friend paid rent up to August 7.

    Her letter states: "Any overpayment of rent will be refunded when the tenancy ends. I can do a bank transfer the same day."
    Originally posted by greyville
    So the tenancy ends on 18th July by mutual early surrender. Say monthly rent is x. From what you have quoted,
    - LL's obligations to provide a home, repairs etc cease on 18th July
    - Tenant's obligations including to look after property condition, clean, pay utility bills, council tax etc cease on 18th July.
    - Tenant agrees to pay rent equal to what would be due upto 7 Aug, ie pay x on 7 Jul.
    - If Tenant overpays rent beyond what was agreed (e.g. x+y) then the overpayment (y) would be refunded immediately on 18 Jul.

    However I agree it seems odd to mention what happens to an overpayment if there was no overpayment expected.. why not also say "If you give me 3 pigs I'll give them back". So, please quote the full discussion in case the context gives another interpretation.

    Did she rent the house to anyone else between, 18 Jul and 7th Aug. If she did, then you qualify for a refund without doubt for the days rented.
    Originally posted by sparkey1
    No, if the tenancy was ended on 18th July then what happens after that is not any of friend's business. The payment on 7th July could be a fixed amount agreed as part of an early surrender, not rent in return for occupation for 7Jul-7Aug. The tenant benefits by not having to be liable for the property condition, utility bills, council tax, etc beyond 18th July.
    • need an answer
    • By need an answer 7th Aug 18, 3:26 PM
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    need an answer
    If a new tenant had been living in the property after your friend left and the tenancy agreement expired then my understanding is that the LL cannot collect two rental amounts on the property so if this were the case I believe a refund may have been due.

    If the property had been vacated and there was no new tenant there,then no rent rebate will be due to your friend.

    How did your friend know a new tenancy agreement was created the day after they left?
    That's not normally information given to the departing tenant,however if such an agreement took place I would be tempted to write formally to request the refund of the days that doubled up from the 19th July.

    However this is only the case if an actual agreement was signed rather than maybe a verbal commitment to take the property on the part of the new tenant.

    As a LL I was once in the position whereby I refunded a departing tenant in similar circumstances however not all LL's are equal.
    Last edited by need an answer; 07-08-2018 at 3:44 PM.
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    2017 -32
    • saajan_12
    • By saajan_12 7th Aug 18, 3:44 PM
    • 1,357 Posts
    • 957 Thanks
    saajan_12
    'if you leave three weeks early, pay me four weeks and I'll refund you three weeks'.
    Originally posted by greyville
    Does any of that actually make sense when you read it back...
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Let me simplify:

    August 7 - day tenancy was due to end
    July 18 - day she moved out.
    August 7 - day rent was paid up to
    There are 20 days between July 18 and August 7. My friend feels she's due a rent refund for those days.
    Originally posted by greyville

    I think Comms69 got that, the point is it doesn't make sense from the outset to say pay me 4weeks and I'll refund 3 weeks.. If the plan was for LL only to keep 1 week's rent, why not just agree to pay 1 week.. Logical reason: the intention was to pay 4 weeks, and refund the 1week in case tenant paid 5 weeks for example. Since another tenant moved in immediately, it wasn't the case that LL expected friend not to move out.

    Agree with the others, stop drip feeding info and quote the whole letter.
    Last edited by saajan_12; 07-08-2018 at 3:46 PM.
    • greyville
    • By greyville 7th Aug 18, 3:45 PM
    • 70 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    greyville
    How did your friend know a new tenancy agreement was created the day after they left?
    Originally posted by need an answer
    The neighbour told her they moved in the next day.
    • need an answer
    • By need an answer 7th Aug 18, 3:47 PM
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    need an answer
    The neighbour told her they moved in the next day.
    Originally posted by greyville
    Although the crucial thing is were they new tenants or maybe friends staying over whilst the property was empty.

    You cant make an assumption without knowing a new tenancy agreement was signed.


    What the neighbour says is just what they see,not always the full picture,
    in S 34 T 54 F 50
    out S 51 T 52 F 53
    2017 -32
    • Guerillatoker
    • By Guerillatoker 7th Aug 18, 5:01 PM
    • 141 Posts
    • 121 Thanks
    Guerillatoker
    I think Comms69 got that, the point is it doesn't make sense from the outset to say pay me 4weeks and I'll refund 3 weeks.. If the plan was for LL only to keep 1 week's rent, why not just agree to pay 1 week.. Logical reason: the intention was to pay 4 weeks, and refund the 1week in case tenant paid 5 weeks for example. Since another tenant moved in immediately, it wasn't the case that LL expected friend not to move out.

    Agree with the others, stop drip feeding info and quote the whole letter.
    Originally posted by saajan_12
    I suppose it does if you look at it this way: Landlord is happy to end tenancy on 18th July but wants to be careful in case the Tenant tries it on and stays til 7th Aug anyway, so asks for full rent and once Landlord is sure Tenant has left then refunds the rent for 18th-7th.

    Obviously this creates a murky situation so needed to be clarified in a decently worded agreement signed by both, as this hasn't been done I suspect the poster's friend will need to take this on the chin.
    • saajan_12
    • By saajan_12 7th Aug 18, 5:13 PM
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    saajan_12
    Since another tenant moved in immediately, it wasn't the case that LL expected friend not to move out.
    Originally posted by saajan_12
    I suppose it does if you look at it this way: Landlord is happy to end tenancy on 18th July but wants to be careful in case the Tenant tries it on and stays til 7th Aug anyway, so asks for full rent and once Landlord is sure Tenant has left then refunds the rent for 18th-7th.
    Originally posted by Guerillatoker
    I thought of this and addressed it in my post.. the fact that a new tenant moved in immediately suggests the LL wasn't worried about friend not moving out, as the LL likely held viewings, references, collected deposit, registered deposit, cleaning, inventory all.. chances are much of this started before the 19th July. If LL was worried friend wouldn't move out, they wouldn't commit to another tenancy as they'd have much bigger issues of covering the incoming tenant's costs for breach of contract than a few days rent.
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