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    • Joey96
    • By Joey96 7th Aug 18, 1:05 PM
    • 7Posts
    • 3Thanks
    Joey96
    Deeds - Help
    • #1
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:05 PM
    Deeds - Help 7th Aug 18 at 1:05 PM
    Hello to everyone, I am writing on behalf of my 91 year old grandfather. I am not sure if I am writing in the correct section so please move if needed.
    Basically, my grandfather has some very old (70yo) deeds to some land, this land is empty however is owned / held by the council. He always knew he owned this land however could not find the deeds until recently.
    My question is, is this land now long gone? Do these deeds mean anything? Is there any way he can try and claim for the land?
    I hope there is someone that can offer a little light before we spend money on a solicitor.
    Thank You in Advance
    Jo
Page 1
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Aug 18, 1:10 PM
    • 4,940 Posts
    • 4,957 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #2
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:10 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:10 PM
    Have you asked the council?


    They may be leasing it? Maybe it was sold years ago - deeds don't mean ownership.
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 7th Aug 18, 1:14 PM
    • 16,839 Posts
    • 46,494 Thanks
    moneyistooshorttomention
    • #3
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:14 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:14 PM
    I'm guessing that the first step here would be to check with the Land Registry and see what information they have on the ownership of this land.

    On the other hand - if the Council have/are just trying to purloin the land - then maybe there will be something in the Council minutes and/or in local newspaper reports of Council proceedings giving some information about this. Also it may be that there is a longstanding Councillor for the area concerned and they might know/remember something about this.
    ****************
    • Joey96
    • By Joey96 7th Aug 18, 1:26 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Joey96
    • #4
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:26 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:26 PM
    Thank you for your responses, I have literally only just taken it upon myself to help him as another family member was 'helping' but just doing nothing about it and hes 91 now. We haven't approached the council as of yet, I will get some more information on the land registry. It's sad that the deeds don't mean ownership as this land was passed down his family. I have just started seeking opinions on where he would stand or if there is any point in pursuing it.
    Once again, thank you for taking the time to reply :-)
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Aug 18, 1:31 PM
    • 4,940 Posts
    • 4,957 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #5
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:31 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:31 PM
    Thank you for your responses, I have literally only just taken it upon myself to help him as another family member was 'helping' but just doing nothing about it and hes 91 now. We haven't approached the council as of yet, I will get some more information on the land registry. It's sad that the deeds don't mean ownership as this land was passed down his family. I have just started seeking opinions on where he would stand or if there is any point in pursuing it.
    Once again, thank you for taking the time to reply :-)
    Originally posted by Joey96
    Im not saying that it definitely doesn't mean he owns it. Just that it could've been purchased at some point - not casting aspersions but he's 91, there's a chance he's forgotten it was sold?
    • Joey96
    • By Joey96 7th Aug 18, 1:35 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Joey96
    • #6
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:35 PM
    • #6
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:35 PM
    Im not saying that it definitely doesn't mean he owns it. Just that it could've been purchased at some point - not casting aspersions but he's 91, there's a chance he's forgotten it was sold?
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Thank you, I will certainly do some more digging.
    I understand why you would think that however if you knew him you would know that there's no way he has sold it without knowing, he was working until last year, as fit as a fiddle, and still driving us round the bend :-)
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Aug 18, 1:40 PM
    • 4,940 Posts
    • 4,957 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #7
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:40 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:40 PM
    Thank you, I will certainly do some more digging.
    I understand why you would think that however if you knew him you would know that there's no way he has sold it without knowing, he was working until last year, as fit as a fiddle, and still driving us round the bend :-)
    Originally posted by Joey96
    Yes but then why does he not know why the council is using his land?


    Not having a go, but it doesn't really make sense
    • Joey96
    • By Joey96 7th Aug 18, 1:54 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Joey96
    • #8
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:54 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:54 PM
    He is just on his way over so I will hopefully have some more information, I have only been told the information re the council by the person who was meant to be helping him before so maybe this is incorrect :-)
    • Richard Webster
    • By Richard Webster 7th Aug 18, 3:28 PM
    • 7,463 Posts
    • 7,193 Thanks
    Richard Webster
    • #9
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:28 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:28 PM
    You will need to look at the deeds to see:

    1. is there a conveyance of the land to your grandfather?
    2. if there is, then does it have a Land Registry stamp on it with a title number? Sometimes the property is registered and the owner simply keeps the old pre-registration deeds because they are no longer needed.

    You can do an index map search at the Land Registry to fin dout if the title is registered and if it is then you can get copies of the entries which will show who the owners is.

    If the Council bought the land off your grandfather then they should have the deeds. If they bought after the area became an area of compulsory registration then they will have a registered title - hence the need to do the index map search.

    If it is thought the Council are merely using the land - unless it could be part of a highway - then they would have to show adverse possession to claim a title in that way. If the area is open and nothing is going on there and they are no obvious means of preventing others going on it then such a claim would not be likely to succeed.

    So do the index map search!
    RICHARD WEBSTER

    As a retired conveyancing solicitor I believe the information given in the post to be useful assuming any properties concerned are in England/Wales but I accept no liability for it.
    • Joey96
    • By Joey96 9th Aug 18, 12:55 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Joey96
    I have had my grandfather round and he has bought a lot of documents, he does have the original conveyance documents and deeds however I cannot see a title number on these at all. He has all the other documentation from when he purchased the land and has explained to me the following information.

    - He purchased the land in 1965 and has all the conveyance documents and deeds

    - The land had a cowshed and piggeries on it, he paid to get electric installed and rented out to a car dealer until 1993 when they stopped paying rent, he went to find out why and the tenants had disappeared. During this time the cottages next to his land were bought by the council and knocked down, he was still renting out his land at this time.

    - A few months later the cowsheds a piggeries were demolished by the council, he contacted them to advise that this was his land and they paid him 500 compensation ( we are trying to find the letter from the council )

    - In 1996 he took proceedings against the council via a solicitor, I have all the documentation from his solicitor and the council and they have basically said that they purchased the land in question and have sent over conveyance documentation that does not correspond with my grandfathers land. At this time his solicitor said he had a very good case however the council were playing hard ball and not responding to enquiries, sending back irrelevant information in turn this built up a bill of over 5000 that my grandfather paid, he then had to stop any further action as he run out of money and could not afford the costs.

    He can now afford to proceed however was wondering if he would still have a case this number of years later, the land now had foot paths through it and the right of way that used to fit cars has been blocked. A patch of land nearby for roughly the same size is for sale at 825,000.

    I have printed out the documents for the HM Land registry title search but my fear is that these will state that the council own it, we also don't have a definite address.

    Any further advise would be very much appreciated.
    Kind Regards
    • Joey96
    • By Joey96 10th Aug 18, 1:40 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Joey96
    I have had my grandfather round and he has bought a lot of documents, he does have the original conveyance documents and deeds however I cannot see a title number on these at all. He has all the other documentation from when he purchased the land and has explained to me the following information.

    - He purchased the land in 1965 and has all the conveyance documents and deeds

    - The land had a cowshed and piggeries on it, he paid to get electric installed and rented out to a car dealer until 1993 when they stopped paying rent, he went to find out why and the tenants had disappeared. During this time the cottages next to his land were bought by the council and knocked down, he was still renting out his land at this time.

    - A few months later the cowsheds a piggeries were demolished by the council, he contacted them to advise that this was his land and they paid him 500 compensation ( we are trying to find the letter from the council )

    - In 1996 he took proceedings against the council via a solicitor, I have all the documentation from his solicitor and the council and they have basically said that they purchased the land in question and have sent over conveyance documentation that does not correspond with my grandfathers land. At this time his solicitor said he had a very good case however the council were playing hard ball and not responding to enquiries, sending back irrelevant information in turn this built up a bill of over 5000 that my grandfather paid, he then had to stop any further action as he run out of money and could not afford the costs.

    He can now afford to proceed however was wondering if he would still have a case this number of years later, the land now had foot paths through it and the right of way that used to fit cars has been blocked. A patch of land nearby for roughly the same size is for sale at 825,000.

    I have printed out the documents for the HM Land registry title search but my fear is that these will state that the council own it, we also don't have a definite address.

    Any further advise would be very much appreciated.
    Kind Regards
    You will need to look at the deeds to see:

    1. is there a conveyance of the land to your grandfather?
    2. if there is, then does it have a Land Registry stamp on it with a title number? Sometimes the property is registered and the owner simply keeps the old pre-registration deeds because they are no longer needed.

    You can do an index map search at the Land Registry to fin dout if the title is registered and if it is then you can get copies of the entries which will show who the owners is.

    If the Council bought the land off your grandfather then they should have the deeds. If they bought after the area became an area of compulsory registration then they will have a registered title - hence the need to do the index map search.

    If it is thought the Council are merely using the land - unless it could be part of a highway - then they would have to show adverse possession to claim a title in that way. If the area is open and nothing is going on there and they are no obvious means of preventing others going on it then such a claim would not be likely to succeed.

    So do the index map search!
    Originally posted by Richard Webster
    • Tiglet2
    • By Tiglet2 10th Aug 18, 2:54 PM
    • 235 Posts
    • 217 Thanks
    Tiglet2
    Did you do the index map search at Land Registry? This is really your first step. You don't have to have a title number, you can use a post code to look for your grandfather's piece of land.

    Once you have pinpointed the exact plot which you believe your grandfather owns, you can click on "Title Number" (top left I believe) to see if it does have one and is therefore registered, or it doesn't have a title number and is therefore not registered.

    If you establish that it is registered, you can purchase the title deed for 3 to see who the registered proprietor is. If it's your grandfather then great, if not, and someone else is the registered proprietor, look to see the date when they became the proprietor and see if you can find any documents around that date to indicate whether your grandfather did sell at that time or it could be that the proprietor acquired the land through adverse possession.

    If the land is not registered and therefore you cannot purchase the title deed, then it is time to instruct a solicitor to do a voluntary (first) registration for the land, whereby they will need all the deeds and documents to establish your grandfather as the rightful owner, get it registered in your grandfather's name and then there should be no problem when/if your grandfather wants to sell.

    Good luck!
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