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  • FIRST POST
    • RaraAvis
    • By RaraAvis 7th Aug 18, 1:03 PM
    • 8Posts
    • 1Thanks
    RaraAvis
    Property Ownership
    • #1
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:03 PM
    Property Ownership 7th Aug 18 at 1:03 PM
    Hi,
    I need your advice urgently regarding the ownership of my property. I feel v insecure as I have kids and relationship between me and my husband is not too good.

    Two years back I purchased a Buy To Let flat with all my savings (from my previous jobs). The flat in currently owned by me and my husband. I wanted to be the sole legal owner of the flat as I have fully paid for it but bank approved the mortgage for both of us on the basis of my husband's job. Hence I was under this impression that I can not buy a property solely on my name. My husband however gave me a declaration of trust which specifies property will be held on trust for themselves as tenants in common in a ratio of 1% to my husband's name and 99% to mine. The registration section of DoT says applicant agrees to apply to land registry for entry of standard form A restriction against title of property; which perhaps indicate that its not registered in LR yet. Is it important/required to register declaration of trust to be registered in LR. Can this DoT document be revoked in future in any way? In case I die, will my kids inherit my property (99%) or it will be transferred fully to my husband?
Page 1
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Aug 18, 1:12 PM
    • 5,038 Posts
    • 5,087 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #2
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:12 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:12 PM
    Hi,
    I need your advice urgently regarding the ownership of my property. I feel v insecure as I have kids and relationship between me and my husband is not too good.

    Two years back I purchased a Buy To Let flat with all my savings (from my previous jobs). The flat in currently owned by me and my husband. I wanted to be the sole legal owner of the flat as I have fully paid for it but bank approved the mortgage for both of us on the basis of my husband's job. Hence I was under this impression that I can not buy a property solely on my name. My husband however gave me a declaration of trust which specifies property will be held on trust for themselves as tenants in common in a ratio of 1% to my husband's name and 99% to mine. The registration section of DoT says applicant agrees to apply to land registry for entry of standard form A restriction against title of property; which perhaps indicate that its not registered in LR yet. Is it important/required to register declaration of trust to be registered in LR. Can this DoT document be revoked in future in any way? In case I die, will my kids inherit my property (99%) or it will be transferred fully to my husband?
    Originally posted by RaraAvis
    As tenants in common you can leave your share to whomever you like.


    But as a married couple, you both own everything jointly - there is no my or yours, just ours.


    Your DOT may be meaningless, a court can choose to disregard it.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 7th Aug 18, 2:28 PM
    • 26,951 Posts
    • 16,097 Thanks
    xylophone
    • #3
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:28 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:28 PM
    Have you checked the Land Registry entry? https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds

    https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-jan-apr-2017/do-tenants-in-common-need-a-declaration-of-trust/

    You are currently letting out the property?
    • RaraAvis
    • By RaraAvis 7th Aug 18, 2:29 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    RaraAvis
    • #4
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:29 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:29 PM
    Thank you for your response. Being married couple automatically implies that property is held jointly?
    Where, like in which document, does it specify that property is purchased as tenants in common? I have seen this only in my DOT. Land registry document doesn't specify the 'joint' or 'tenant in common' status. Any idea about Form A restriction against title ?? what is it?

    Considering my current situation, based on DOT, can I leave my 99% share to my kids if I write a will?
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Aug 18, 2:36 PM
    • 5,038 Posts
    • 5,087 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #5
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:36 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:36 PM
    Thank you for your response. Being married couple automatically implies that property is held jointly?
    Where, like in which document, does it specify that property is purchased as tenants in common? I have seen this only in my DOT. Land registry document doesn't specify the 'joint' or 'tenant in common' status. Any idea about Form A restriction against title ?? what is it?

    Considering my current situation, based on DOT, can I leave my 99% share to my kids if I write a will?
    Originally posted by RaraAvis
    It depends, assuming you're headed to a split a judge would decide how assets are separated.


    Yes being married means you share all assets - I thought that was obvious?
    • RaraAvis
    • By RaraAvis 7th Aug 18, 2:46 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    RaraAvis
    • #6
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:46 PM
    • #6
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:46 PM
    I am sorry My knowledge about systems in UK is quite basic :-( hence I am asking things ....
    • RaraAvis
    • By RaraAvis 7th Aug 18, 2:57 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    RaraAvis
    • #7
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:57 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:57 PM
    So as I understand, being a married person, I can not own anything alone and I can not only transfer anything to my kids unless I purchased as Tenants in Common (which currently I am not sure about). Also the DOT seems to only specifies proportion of beneficial interest (like income and right to sell etc) but not the legal ownership status...?
    applying for form A restriction in LR, does it protect me in any ways? or getting another type of document?
    Is there any way I can change my legal ownership in land registry in future may be or no way out for me?
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Aug 18, 3:03 PM
    • 5,038 Posts
    • 5,087 Thanks
    Comms69
    • #8
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:03 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:03 PM
    So as I understand, being a married person, I can not own anything alone and I can not only transfer anything to my kids unless I purchased as Tenants in Common (which currently I am not sure about). Also the DOT seems to only specifies proportion of beneficial interest (like income and right to sell etc) but not the legal ownership status...?
    applying for form A restriction in LR, does it protect me in any ways? or getting another type of document?
    Is there any way I can change my legal ownership in land registry in future may be or no way out for me?
    Originally posted by RaraAvis


    You can own things. Ofcourse.


    In theory everything is owned jointly. In practice personal items are exempt. This is a significant asset and if you are going to divorce you need to be careful.


    You don't want to be hiding assets (not suggesting you are, but it's entering that territory)
    • RaraAvis
    • By RaraAvis 7th Aug 18, 3:08 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    RaraAvis
    • #9
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:08 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Aug 18, 3:08 PM
    thank you. these links are very helpful. I have LR title deed with me, which simply mentions our names and nothing about 'joint' or 'tenant in common' status. Where is the transfer deed, is it kept by solicitors or should I have a copy?
    • RaraAvis
    • By RaraAvis 7th Aug 18, 3:19 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    RaraAvis
    I just found this from a website named rocketlawyer which is v different to what you told me:

    What does a declaration of trust do?
    A declaration of trust confirms the true ownership of a property in the proportions contributed by each party regardless of the title entries at the land registry. It can allow an owner not protected by being a registered owner of a property at the land registry to actually be an owner and be protected as such. The declaration of trust can be noted at the land registry, alerting future purchasers that the registered owner is not alone in owning the property.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Aug 18, 3:23 PM
    • 5,038 Posts
    • 5,087 Thanks
    Comms69
    I just found this from a website named rocketlawyer which is v different to what you told me:

    What does a declaration of trust do?
    A declaration of trust confirms the true ownership of a property in the proportions contributed by each party regardless of the title entries at the land registry. It can allow an owner not protected by being a registered owner of a property at the land registry to actually be an owner and be protected as such. The declaration of trust can be noted at the land registry, alerting future purchasers that the registered owner is not alone in owning the property.
    Originally posted by RaraAvis
    Does it mention marriage in that article?....
    • Tom99
    • By Tom99 7th Aug 18, 3:28 PM
    • 2,803 Posts
    • 1,922 Thanks
    Tom99
    thank you. these links are very helpful. I have LR title deed with me, which simply mentions our names and nothing about 'joint' or 'tenant in common' status. Where is the transfer deed, is it kept by solicitors or should I have a copy?
    Originally posted by RaraAvis

    Look under B: Proprietorship Register
    No disposition by a sole proprietor of the registered estate (except a trust corporation) under which capital money arises is to be registered unless authorised by an order of the court.
    • RaraAvis
    • By RaraAvis 7th Aug 18, 4:20 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    RaraAvis
    Yes that section is present (which I doesn't understand even a word of) as you typed under B...

    Proprietorship Register
    No disposition by a sole proprietor of the registered estate (except a trust corporation) under which capital money arises is to be registered unless authorised by an order of the court.


    Also there are two more restrictions below the one you specified.... (again beyond my understanding)... Nothing like 'tenant in common' thing...
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 7th Aug 18, 4:33 PM
    • 26,951 Posts
    • 16,097 Thanks
    xylophone
    Being married couple automatically implies that property is held jointly?
    Married people can own a property as tenants-in-common if they so choose.

    They may opt to hold a property as joint tenants on the basis that if one of them were to predecease the other, the property would pass to the spouse automatically by right of survivorship, regardless of any will, which is not the case with tenants in common.

    The FAQ here may be of interest.

    https://www.deedoftrust.co.uk/restrictions/

    If you do not understand your rights and obligations, consult a solicitor who will explain them.
    Last edited by xylophone; 07-08-2018 at 4:36 PM. Reason: add bold
  • Land Registry
    You are looking to cover a lot of ground in what is a complex area of the law. Here are some basic points to consider although these matters would normally have been discussed and understood when you bought the property, entered into the DoT and mortgaged in joint names.

    The register is not definitive re such detail and the term 'tenants in common' is not referred to on the register.

    Joint owners may indicate that they wish to hold the property as tenants in common when they are registered or may decide to sever their joint tenancy at some stage. In your case it appears you entered into a DoT, which we would not nromally see, and completed the Transfer (form TR1) panel 10

    When this happens, and where the land is registered, we can register a Form A restriction on the registered title, namely
    'No disposition by a sole proprietor of the registered estate (except a trust corporation) under which capital money arises is to be registered unless authorised by an order of the court'

    The Form A restriction does not itself change the ownership from beneficial joint tenancy to tenancy in common. The restriction only reflects the request or change made.

    For further information see Joint property ownership available on the GOV.UK website

    A registered title deals with the legal ownership. This means that when one of joint owners dies the legal ownership passes to the surviving joint owner.

    The DoT and indeed your wills relate to the beneficial ownership and your respective shares in that. The survivor would account for these when dealing with the property following the death as mentioned. If they did not then the beneficiaries, your children, are likely to be able to take legal action.

    It is important to make wills in such cases to provide clarity as to what is to happen re your beneficial interests/shares.

    Finally, to help distinguish between the legal and beneficial ownerships and how the the registration process views these a simple analogy may help

    The legal ownership should be thought of as the bricks & mortar and land of the property. They can't be 'split' in that you get 99% of each and your partner 1%.

    The beneficial ownership relates to the value of the bricks & mortar and land less any mortgage. Think of that in s and that can of course be split with say 99K being your beneficial share and 1K being your partners

    You can leave your beneficial shares to the children.
    But the legal ownership always has to be dealt with as a whole, hence the DoT and wills being important to help the surviving joint owner deal with the property and beneficial shares appropriately
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • RaraAvis
    • By RaraAvis 7th Aug 18, 6:00 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    RaraAvis
    Thank you so much Land Registry. This reply is very much useful and what was ideally looking for providing answers to most of my questions. I can see that DOT and will are v important in case of tenant in common. Does DOT beneficiary ownership share applies in case of divorce as well or it this DOT nullifies ? also is it possible to revoke or change this DOT without the other partner's consent in case there is any disagreement between partners?
  • Land Registry
    Thank you so much Land Registry. This reply is very much useful and what was ideally looking for providing answers to most of my questions. I can see that DOT and will are v important in case of tenant in common. Does DOT beneficiary ownership share applies in case of divorce as well or it this DOT nullifies ? also is it possible to revoke or change this DOT without the other partner's consent in case there is any disagreement between partners?
    Originally posted by RaraAvis
    Two things we don't deal with I'm afraid so you'll need others to advise on how DoT affects matters during a divorce and whether you can change it without the other's consent/involvement

    I'm guessing No in each case but would be interested to read what others with better knowledge re such things suggest. But do get legal advice, perhaps from the person who helped you put together the DoT as I woukd have expected this to have been covered then.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
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