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    • Ahmed365
    • By Ahmed365 7th Aug 18, 12:55 AM
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    Ahmed365
    Selling house F&F offers or CCA? - help!
    • #1
    • 7th Aug 18, 12:55 AM
    Selling house F&F offers or CCA? - help! 7th Aug 18 at 12:55 AM
    Hi, it's my first time on this forum, I've noticed that there's such a helpful community present here and maybe had the hope someone could help me out with the complicated issue I have at hand. Since it's my first time please go easy with the abbreviations

    My parents are on a shared DMP with MoneyPlus and have been with them for a very long time now (10 years or so) they have a combined debt of 32k spread amongst 12 different creditors. I am aware that ALL of their original creditors debt has been sold onto the likes of PRA, Idem, NCO Europe, Robinson & Way, Link Financial, Wescot and Cabot. The large majority of the debt was created around 2004/05/06 and they have been paying little to nothing to these creditors on a monthly basis (1-5 per creditor each month) at that rate it would take 100+ years to clear it all off. They also regularly get offers from Cabot and some others offering 1k for a 4k debt and considering it settled.

    My parents are planning on selling their property to my sister, to then use the profit to make full and final settlement offers. However I'm not too sure how to go about this as the amount they'll receive will be more than enough to clear the full amount, so why would creditors accept a lower offer?

    We were initially thinking of giving out f&f offers before the completion of the purchase so that they can't do land registry checks in time and demand the full amount. Instead we would rely on them accepting the offer before the sale of the property (hopefully not asking for the source the of money) and as soon as they accept, we could use the proceeds to pay a reduced amount. I was planning on starting negotiations at 30% and will also use the template found on National Debt line to send out f&f offers.

    However, recently what intrigued me was that debts prior to April 2007 may be unenforceable if the debt has been sold on and the original CCA (credit agreement?) isn't provided or signed over? Is that correct? I have also read amongst the forum that I should request a SAR for the original CCA's (how would I go about this, are there any templates and what am I looking out for once I get the documents? And what if there's no reply?) My parents are relatively old now so they aren't too concerned with their credit file, as long as these debts are unenforceable. If there's a way of not needing to repay most of the debt, then thats the option that is probably best for us. But I don't know the ins and outs on how to do this, but I am willing to learn.

    I plan to do fix this independent of MoneyPlus (since they charge horrendous fees), of the 50 a month we pay to them, 50% of that goes to MoneyPlus and the other 50% would be shared between the 12 creditors.

    The last thing we would want is to sell the property and be forced to pay back the full 32K as we have other plans with that money.

    I'm really stuck on what to do, it will be a hell of a task writing to and managing the responses of all 12 creditors, but it is what it is.

    Any help from the more experienced members of this hub would be more than appreciated. Thanks!
Page 1
    • fatbelly
    • By fatbelly 7th Aug 18, 8:40 AM
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    fatbelly
    • #2
    • 7th Aug 18, 8:40 AM
    • #2
    • 7th Aug 18, 8:40 AM
    Sounds like a good plan. A couple of tweaks.

    1. Ditch moneyplus immediately!

    2. start F&F offers at 25%

    I personally wouldn't start with a SAR (though these are now free). I would start with a s77-79 cca request, again using national debtline templates. You wouldn't be able to do this with overdrafts and mobile phone debts but I assume these are credit cards/loans.

    The advantage of s77-79 requests are that the debts are immediately unenforceable and stay that way until they comply. If you need more information later then do a full SAR.

    Your outline plan is good though in relation to the debts - and don't worry about the timing.

    However, these are non-priority debts and there are other issues, such as security of tenure for your parents, care fees or inheritance tax which may become more important. I haven't really thought about them here. They should maybe take advice from specialists in those areas if they are trying to become tenants in their own house.
    • -taff
    • By -taff 7th Aug 18, 9:00 AM
    • 8,960 Posts
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    -taff
    • #3
    • 7th Aug 18, 9:00 AM
    • #3
    • 7th Aug 18, 9:00 AM
    If they did sell the house to your sister, if she needs a mortgage for it, the mortgage company would not be happy about her letting to family. Also worth asking about on the mortgages board about that aspect.
    These companies don't need t know where the money is coming from, only that the money is coming.
    Sourcrates has some good advice re full and final offers, but I can't find the post I'm thinking of. Something along the lines of theyhave been paying this debt for years and not really paying it off, so you could start at ten percent and see what they say....
    • MovingForwards
    • By MovingForwards 7th Aug 18, 9:13 AM
    • 422 Posts
    • 511 Thanks
    MovingForwards
    • #4
    • 7th Aug 18, 9:13 AM
    • #4
    • 7th Aug 18, 9:13 AM
    Ditch MP as they do take a big cut of the payments and the debts take so long to clear. If token payment are being made there is nothing stopping your parents doing it themselves.

    Do not let MP do the f&f payments as I would hazard a guess they would take a chunk before even making the offers.

    I have been doing my own f&f, much to MP's annoyance
    • poppasmurf_bewdley
    • By poppasmurf_bewdley 7th Aug 18, 10:16 AM
    • 5,326 Posts
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    poppasmurf_bewdley
    • #5
    • 7th Aug 18, 10:16 AM
    • #5
    • 7th Aug 18, 10:16 AM
    Sounds like a good plan. A couple of tweaks.

    1. Ditch moneyplus immediately!

    2. start F&F offers at 25%

    I personally wouldn't start with a SAR (though these are now free). I would start with a s77-79 cca request, again using national debtline templates. You wouldn't be able to do this with overdrafts and mobile phone debts but I assume these are credit cards/loans.

    The advantage of s77-79 requests are that the debts are immediately unenforceable and stay that way until they comply. If you need more information later then do a full SAR.

    Your outline plan is good though in relation to the debts - and don't worry about the timing.

    However, these are non-priority debts and there are other issues, such as security of tenure for your parents, care fees or inheritance tax which may become more important. I haven't really thought about them here. They should maybe take advice from specialists in those areas if they are trying to become tenants in their own house.
    Originally posted by fatbelly
    Although overdrafts and mobile phone bills are excluded when applying for a CCA, you should always include them if you have them, because if they can't supply the CCA then they have no idea what the outstanding amount is for.

    I'm speaking for a friends on mine who got a 4k overdraft plus fees written off via a CCA as the debt was 20 years old and nobody at the bank could find any paperwork.
    "There are not enough superlatives in the English language to describe a 'Princess Coronation' locomotive in full cry. We shall never see their like again". O S Nock
    • Ahmed365
    • By Ahmed365 7th Aug 18, 1:11 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Ahmed365
    • #6
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:11 PM
    • #6
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:11 PM
    Hi everyone,

    Many thanks for all the replies. I have thought about inheritance tax when selling the property, we will be subject to inheritance tax if one of my parents pass away within 7 years of selling the property (I'm taking a calculated risk here). My sister is applying with NatWest, as our broker recommended they have a loop hole which allows this sort of transaction to take place.

    It's also good to confirm that I'm best doing this without MoneyPlus. Like I've mentioned, my parents are in a position where they will no longer need to take out further credit in the foreseeable future, so it isn't really an issue if their credit files remain tainted. I will definitely take the 'CCA route'.

    For a CCA I have to do a postal order to the creditors main office? Is that correct - then it is up to them to collect it?

    fatbelly, you have mentioned that I shouldn't worry about the timing? Can you elaborate on that. Since the sale of the property is fairly imminent (completion within 3 months) and knowing that some creditors reply after months and months - what if they get back to me long after the sale of the property with a valid credit agreement, will I be liable to pay the full amount now?

    Also one final thing, should I ditch MoneyPlus (cancel DMP) and then send out these CCA requests or stay with them, whilst I send the CCA requests out and wait for response?

    Thanks
    • sourcrates
    • By sourcrates 7th Aug 18, 1:22 PM
    • 15,908 Posts
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    sourcrates
    • #7
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:22 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:22 PM
    Ditch money plus now.

    There fees are stupid, send your CCA request to each individual creditor, that automatically puts the accounts on hold, they will remain that way until your request is complied with.

    Any credit debt can be Unenforceable if no paperwork is sent, not just pre 2007debts.

    Do some research on the subject, Google sec 77/79 CCA 1978.

    If you eventually intend doing full and finals, use the template letter on the National debt line website under sample letters.
    Last edited by sourcrates; 07-08-2018 at 1:26 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Credit File And Ratings, and
    Bankruptcy And Living With It, boards. "I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly".
    Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an abusive or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    For free debt advice, contact either : Stepchange, National Debtline, or, CAB.
    For Free Legal advice see : http://legalbeagles.info/
    • fatbelly
    • By fatbelly 7th Aug 18, 2:07 PM
    • 13,126 Posts
    • 10,185 Thanks
    fatbelly
    • #8
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:07 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:07 PM
    fatbelly, you have mentioned that I shouldn't worry about the timing? Can you elaborate on that. Since the sale of the property is fairly imminent (completion within 3 months) and knowing that some creditors reply after months and months - what if they get back to me long after the sale of the property with a valid credit agreement, will I be liable to pay the full amount now?
    Originally posted by Ahmed365
    All the creditors need to know is that the money is coming from a third party. The creditors will probably not even know whether your parents are tenants or owners and I would not get into that discussion.

    You can say that your parents are X years old, they are paying at Y per month and there is now an offer of Z to settle the debt. It probably will take a long time to get to the final figure.

    Someone else mentioned starting at 10%. Well, you can always go up. But I have only seen 10% where there is defective paperwork or a likelihood of bankruptcy.
    • Ahmed365
    • By Ahmed365 7th Aug 18, 2:39 PM
    • 6 Posts
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    Ahmed365
    • #9
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:39 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Aug 18, 2:39 PM
    Understood. I called MoneyPlus a couple of weeks ago and I cheekily asked them what would happen if my parents sold the property and didn't repay their creditors. She said that when the MoneyPlus re-assessment happens (which is annually) they will notice no mortgage payments and then query that using Land registry. If some of the creditors come back with a valid credit agreement (which has to be signed I believe?) I will go ahead and make f&f offers but definitely won't be telling them the true source of the money. Sometimes they want evidence or maybe might even go through the hassle of checking land registry before accepting a settlement offer.

    It's complicated because it's tied in with the property sale, so although I am not worried about the creditors who cannot produce a valid agreement, I'm concerned that the ones that can produce one might look into the matter and demand full amount otherwise might take my parents to court for evading their obligation to repay debts with the available capital.
    • sourcrates
    • By sourcrates 7th Aug 18, 3:48 PM
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    sourcrates
    There is no requirement to provide a document bearing a signature funnily enough.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Credit File And Ratings, and
    Bankruptcy And Living With It, boards. "I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly".
    Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an abusive or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    For free debt advice, contact either : Stepchange, National Debtline, or, CAB.
    For Free Legal advice see : http://legalbeagles.info/
    • fatbelly
    • By fatbelly 7th Aug 18, 4:40 PM
    • 13,126 Posts
    • 10,185 Thanks
    fatbelly
    Understood. I called MoneyPlus a couple of weeks ago and I cheekily asked them what would happen if my parents sold the property and didn't repay their creditors. She said that when the MoneyPlus re-assessment happens (which is annually) they will notice no mortgage payments and then query that using Land registry..
    Originally posted by Ahmed365
    Then that is anther reason to leave moneyplus immediately


    Can I cancel a debt management plan?

    As debt management plans are not a legally binding solution, should you have any problems you can cancel at any time .... Should you still wish to cancel a debt management plan, contact the company in writing stating your desire to stop.
    • Ahmed365
    • By Ahmed365 7th Aug 18, 8:33 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Ahmed365
    Thanks for the support everyone.

    I will go ahead and cancel my parents' DMP with MoneyPlus and then send out the CCA requests. When sending the letters, do I send it to the HQ of the companies or is there a specific place? And I should also do a 1 postal order to the same address. I would appreciate if someone went through the small details as I am unsure.

    Is there also a general time limit that I should give them after sending the request, e.g. 3 months, after which I could consider the debt unenforceable? (if I get no response)

    If I do get documents back, what should I look out for?

    Thanks!
    • NeverendingDMP
    • By NeverendingDMP 7th Aug 18, 9:34 PM
    • 145 Posts
    • 619 Thanks
    NeverendingDMP
    I sent my CCA requests to the address I had on any correspondence or statements. I enclosed the cheque and wrote CCA request and my name and reference number on the back in case it got separate from the letter in the postal room. Not everyone cashed the cheque though. Some sent it back and one place even sent me another person's check....

    The debt collection agencys replied with a letter than was self explanatory. This debt is currently unenforceable till we send further info etc.

    Those still with original creditors have sent me random stuff with no explanation. There is a thread on here were people know what to look for and can offer help with the technical details. Not sure what it's called but someone will point you in the right direction.

    Not sure how your parents DMP provider works but before I rang to cancel mine with stepchange as I wanted to self manage I was advised to write down all the names addresses account numbers and amounts owed for each debt as it then wouldn't appear online. You may need to do this if it's online?
    Good luck. I'm sure it will be a few hours work for you but it's very good that you are doing it and it will 50 percent of what your parents payment is now either being put to better use towards the debts or in their spending pot.
    35,213 in Jan 2018, 29791 remaining.
    Mortgage 77230 in Jan 2018
    74872 remaining.
    Emergency fund 250
    • NeverendingDMP
    • By NeverendingDMP 7th Aug 18, 9:46 PM
    • 145 Posts
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    NeverendingDMP
    I sent CCA requests in April and three are currently unenforceable pending further information. I'm making reduced payment due to this but others have stopped all payments while still pending. Again others may explain this part better
    35,213 in Jan 2018, 29791 remaining.
    Mortgage 77230 in Jan 2018
    74872 remaining.
    Emergency fund 250
    • sourcrates
    • By sourcrates 7th Aug 18, 10:21 PM
    • 15,908 Posts
    • 14,957 Thanks
    sourcrates
    Thanks for the support everyone.

    I will go ahead and cancel my parents' DMP with MoneyPlus and then send out the CCA requests. When sending the letters, do I send it to the HQ of the companies or is there a specific place? And I should also do a 1 postal order to the same address. I would appreciate if someone went through the small details as I am unsure.

    Is there also a general time limit that I should give them after sending the request, e.g. 3 months, after which I could consider the debt unenforceable? (if I get no response)

    If I do get documents back, what should I look out for?

    Thanks!
    Originally posted by Ahmed365
    Send to whoever is chasing you for payment.

    They have 14 days to comply, but these are only guidelines, expect to wait a couple of months at least.

    As long as they send a legible copy of each credit agreement detailing the financial aspects applicable, then they have complied.

    Pre April 2007 credit card agreements must contain the prescribed terms applicable to that account also.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Credit File And Ratings, and
    Bankruptcy And Living With It, boards. "I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly".
    Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an abusive or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    For free debt advice, contact either : Stepchange, National Debtline, or, CAB.
    For Free Legal advice see : http://legalbeagles.info/
    • Ahmed365
    • By Ahmed365 8th Aug 18, 2:14 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Ahmed365
    So you're continuing to pay the creditors whilst you wait for them to give you a response? Is it not better to stop all payments after sending off all CCA's until they comply?
    • sourcrates
    • By sourcrates 8th Aug 18, 9:49 AM
    • 15,908 Posts
    • 14,957 Thanks
    sourcrates
    So you're continuing to pay the creditors whilst you wait for them to give you a response? Is it not better to stop all payments after sending off all CCA's until they comply?
    Originally posted by Ahmed365
    You are not required to pay whilst you wait for a response.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Credit File And Ratings, and
    Bankruptcy And Living With It, boards. "I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly".
    Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an abusive or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    For free debt advice, contact either : Stepchange, National Debtline, or, CAB.
    For Free Legal advice see : http://legalbeagles.info/
    • NeverendingDMP
    • By NeverendingDMP 8th Aug 18, 12:10 PM
    • 145 Posts
    • 619 Thanks
    NeverendingDMP
    Hi yes sorry I should have explained my choice better. No need to pay but mines the highest debt I've got and I've no hope of saving for any settlement offers for it unless I lower it a bit.

    I've taken the personal choice to pay a little bit to take the edge of it and just in case the paperwork
    for it appears and I need to restart payments again.

    Too be fair though it's four months and they've sent me nothing so I'm increasingly leaning towards paying none for a while and keeping the money.
    35,213 in Jan 2018, 29791 remaining.
    Mortgage 77230 in Jan 2018
    74872 remaining.
    Emergency fund 250
    • Suseka97
    • By Suseka97 8th Aug 18, 2:35 PM
    • 492 Posts
    • 618 Thanks
    Suseka97
    So you're continuing to pay the creditors whilst you wait for them to give you a response? Is it not better to stop all payments after sending off all CCA's until they comply?
    Originally posted by Ahmed365
    Good to read you're taking the account away from the money grabbing DMP company your parents are with makes me so cross when companies like that know people can get the same service for free, but trade off people's lack of knowledge and general state of mind at the time.

    Anyways - with regards to your question. The simple answer is no - send the CCA requests and stop payments. You don't have to use a postal order, you can send a cheque if that's easier.

    I've not paid anything on my 6 remaining accounts for a year now. Three have been reported as UE and I'm still waiting to receive any sort of paperwork, acknowledgement of the CCAs for the other three (those are with LINK who are pretty inept at this sort of thing).

    Good luck.
    LBM April 2013 85k /14 Creditors
    SC DMP May 2013 - July 2017 (74k repaid)
    SM DMP July 2017 to date / 9k o/s
    • poppasmurf_bewdley
    • By poppasmurf_bewdley 8th Aug 18, 3:11 PM
    • 5,326 Posts
    • 5,431 Thanks
    poppasmurf_bewdley
    You don't have to use a postal order, you can send a cheque if that's easier.
    Originally posted by Suseka97
    The reason it is suggested that you send a Postal Order rather than a cheque is so that your signature cannot be simulated on a fake agreement which could be produced in reply to a CCA request.

    Of, course, we are not suggesting for one moment that Debt Collection Agencies or others would stoop to such low tactics!!!
    "There are not enough superlatives in the English language to describe a 'Princess Coronation' locomotive in full cry. We shall never see their like again". O S Nock
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