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  • FIRST POST
    • BitterVirtue
    • By BitterVirtue 6th Aug 18, 6:26 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 0Thanks
    BitterVirtue
    Litter Fine please help
    • #1
    • 6th Aug 18, 6:26 PM
    Litter Fine please help 6th Aug 18 at 6:26 PM
    Hi all

    New to here and am after a bit of advice if possible?

    My Son was approached by what he describes as 2 big burly men who intimidated him and accused him of dropping a roll up end (My Son says he dropped it as it was burning his hand and he then picked it up and stubbed it out on one of those ash tray thingys on walls). He was issued with a FPN and said he wants to fight it as he doesn't believe he has done anything wrong. The place on the FPN is half a mile away from where the alleged offence took place so they have got the are and street name wrong.

    He says they followed him into his place of work (He works 4 hours a week).

    He suffers from severe depression and has self harmed and attempted to take his own life in the past and this has made him very down and upset about the whole thing.

    Anyway we have now received the Court papers and the 'Statement' from the jobsworth just repeats 'he was issued with a fine etc etc pay up pay up' that is basically what it says.

    After reviewing all this, they have sent a photocopy of the FPN and it has his place of work written on it in black pen.....I have the original one issued and it does not have this on, so it has clearly been tampered with!! where it says id checked is totally blank but on the copy they have sent with the Court Papers has his place of work clearly written in different handwriting to the original which doesn't have it on, my Son says they never asked him for ID, anyway they knew where he worked as they followed him and he had his uniform on with the company name on the shirt.

    Is this Perverting the course of Justice or just basic tampering with evidence? I have all the evidence and I even have letters from the council saying they don't have any footage after I asked for any footage. My local MP has also asked for the footage and the Council has just ignored her.

    Does anyone know where I stand on this? I am not condoning littering but there are surely mitigating circumstances here and the evidence has clearly been tampered with so if littering is an offence then I am sure what they have done is an offence too.

    I spoke to the Council today and the arrogant git on the other end said that it wasn't tampered with it was just 'additional information'.....if that was the case then why not write this 'additional information' on a separate sheet of paper? He also said that the docket was not evidence, even though it has a stamp saying exhibit SG1, so I am taking it as evidence.

    Thanks in advance for your replies.
Page 2
    • takman
    • By takman 7th Aug 18, 2:00 PM
    • 3,598 Posts
    • 3,221 Thanks
    takman
    I assume you dont drink tea coffee or alcohol nor use painkillers or the sort otherwise your post is pointless and hypocritical..

    in fact, it is pointless regardless.
    Originally posted by reason2
    Yes i really should have been more specific in my wording and said "stop needlessly using a drug that is highly addictive which is needlessly damaging his health" but i thought the point i was making is clear.

    Also if i felt like i needed to drink coffee, alcohol or use painkillers everyday before i went to work for no reason then yes i would also consider that an addiction which is a problem.

    Although this is going off topic it is related because if her son didn't needlessly smoke then he wouldn't have got the fine.
    • reason2
    • By reason2 7th Aug 18, 2:11 PM
    • 287 Posts
    • 312 Thanks
    reason2
    Still irrelevant, NHS figures show alcohol releated health issues cost more than smoking.
    If you drink alcohol you are needlessly taking drugs.

    you are making a pointless hypocritical argument that serves no purpose.
    If he dropped it to put it out and then used an ashtray - he wasn't littering..

    You have made assumptions and now want to appear like you have some superiority in the scenario when really you just seem oddly bitter and pedantic for no reason other than to inflate your own ego.

    be constructive and helpful or go to another forum more suited to your pedantry..
    • takman
    • By takman 7th Aug 18, 2:52 PM
    • 3,598 Posts
    • 3,221 Thanks
    takman
    Still irrelevant, NHS figures show alcohol releated health issues cost more than smoking.
    If you drink alcohol you are needlessly taking drugs.
    Originally posted by reason2
    I agree that drinking alcohol is needlessly taking drugs, but i'm not saying it's wrong to drink occasionally for leisure.

    If someone was having a pint of beer everyday before work because they were addicted to it then i'm sure even you agree that's a problem and they need help.

    you are making a pointless hypocritical argument that serves no purpose.
    If he dropped it to put it out and then used an ashtray - he wasn't littering..
    Originally posted by reason2
    How do you know that he didn't drop it on the floor then quickly pick it up when he noticed someone had caught him. Stating he wasn't littering is an assumption that your making.

    You have made assumptions and now want to appear like you have some superiority in the scenario when really you just seem oddly bitter and pedantic for no reason other than to inflate your own ego.

    be constructive and helpful or go to another forum more suited to your pedantry..
    Originally posted by reason2
    What assumptions am i making?

    If i wanted to act superior i would be making some long speech about how i never drink alcohol, never drink tea etc but i didn't say anything like that and it wouldn't be true anyway.

    But you seem to be defending people being addicted to substances which damage their health. You seem to think smoking is ok because it costs less than alcohol abuse?. Well health is more important than money.
    • maninthestreet
    • By maninthestreet 7th Aug 18, 7:21 PM
    • 15,306 Posts
    • 13,824 Thanks
    maninthestreet
    "A person is guilty of an offence if he throws down, drops or otherwise deposits any litter in any place to which this section applies and leaves it."

    That last bit is important -the offence is dropping AND leaving. If he picked it up and did not leave it, then no offence was committed.
    "You were only supposed to blow the bl**dy doors off!!"
    • Les79
    • By Les79 7th Aug 18, 10:41 PM
    • 368 Posts
    • 434 Thanks
    Les79
    Still irrelevant, NHS figures show alcohol releated health issues cost more than smoking.
    If you drink alcohol you are needlessly taking drugs.

    you are making a pointless hypocritical argument that serves no purpose.
    If he dropped it to put it out and then used an ashtray - he wasn't littering..

    You have made assumptions and now want to appear like you have some superiority in the scenario when really you just seem oddly bitter and pedantic for no reason other than to inflate your own ego.

    be constructive and helpful or go to another forum more suited to your pedantry..
    Originally posted by reason2
    You shouldn't be bringing up alcohol in this discussion. Alcohol doesn't generally cause litter problems in day-to-day affairs, except with the down and outs who drink all day and night (and I've seen some of them around my way dumping cans/bottles in the street; good luck fining them! Post the fine to the local hospice and expect it to be used as toilet paper; ASSUMING you can get their details). Maybe at a push people who fly-tip, but recycling schemes (and even the normal bin service) generally covers that.

    I don't think it is right like (I also don't think it is right that the government initially promoted cigarettes and taxed it despite the health effects; something I mirror with alcohol to be fair), but smokers are an easy target on the littering front! The amount of people with income who are happy to smoke in public and chuck their butt ends on the floor genuinely baffles me. In my previous work people literally chucked butt ends on the floor NEXT TO A BIN! Literally 1 foot away from it.... It was on private property like, so the employed cleaners earned their keep, but some "brave" souls chucked their butt ends on the floor on public land! And the local enforcement officers were like flies to !!!!! Every other day I heard stories like that of OP's post.

    So I have no sympathy for OP like. When people are caught out they come up with excuses ("it was burning his hand and he then picked it up and stubbed it out"*) to try and wriggle out of it. The truth is, one could so easily have smoked next to a bin/blown it out before the butt end burnt their hand and disposed of it correctly. But that didn't happen, so it turns into an "argue the toss" scenario. Hell, they could have even been like alcoholics and done it in private... It's just infuriating in a way, because people don't engage their brain and expect to get off scott-free!

    Oh and add in the obligatory "He suffers from severe depression" line Shall we consult the NHS on that?

    It's an absolute farce posts like this.

    *EDIT: and just to point out but he effectively threw a flammable item onto the ground. 999/1000 times that isn't an issue, but it can cause a fire in very specific circumstances! AND people typically stub such a butt end out with their FOOT. It just doesn't make sense to throw it on the ground, wait for it to burn out and then pick it up; wholly more likely that it was picked up only because someone challenged him.
    Last edited by Les79; 07-08-2018 at 10:55 PM.
    • hollydays
    • By hollydays 7th Aug 18, 10:47 PM
    • 16,300 Posts
    • 12,327 Thanks
    hollydays
    It's also a farce when people keep saying "like"
    • jumpedtheshark
    • By jumpedtheshark 8th Aug 18, 9:45 AM
    • 279 Posts
    • 322 Thanks
    jumpedtheshark
    In case OP returns, can you clarify the order:
    Option 1: Son drops cigarette end, son picks up and disposes of cigarette end, son is issued FPN
    OR
    Option 2: Son drops cigarette end, son is issued FPN, son picks up and disposes of cigarette end.


    If option 2 applies, was your son offered an opportunity to pick it up (see 'accidental littering') before the FPN was issued?
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 8th Aug 18, 11:27 AM
    • 6,318 Posts
    • 13,463 Thanks
    marliepanda
    Meh, apparently I wrote 446 words and only 7 of them were "like".

    Not going to lose any sleep over 1.57% of my words being "like" to be fair; though it might be linked to a local dialect perhaps?

    EDIT: and some of the "like" words were necessary

    DOUBLE EDIT: I feel like Joey Barton!
    Originally posted by Les79
    Only 3 of your 7 were 'dialect based' likes. I'm North-eastern. I know the feeling!
    • rollingmoon
    • By rollingmoon 8th Aug 18, 12:57 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    rollingmoon
    Good luck to the OP. I've been on the receiving end of this kind of attempted fraud too.

    In getting my gear on to ride my motorbike out of a public car park, one of my foam earplugs blew out of my hand. I retrieved it immediately, and before I'd had time to dust it off and fit it I was pounced upon by two of these individuals, claiming they'd videoed me dropping litter. I carried on putting on my lid and rode away without engaging with them in any way. This was just over a year ago, nothing has been heard since.

    With regard to some of the replies the OP has received up to now - well... all I'll say is that some people need to find a purpose in their lives greater than whatever drives them currently.
    • BitterVirtue
    • By BitterVirtue 9th Aug 18, 12:45 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    BitterVirtue
    Drugs? Wtf are you on about? It was a roll uo ciggarette.

    Ive screenshotted this.
    • BitterVirtue
    • By BitterVirtue 9th Aug 18, 12:48 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    BitterVirtue
    It's just as likely that he dropped it on the floor and put it out with his foot (as it was hot) then picked it up once he noticed someone had saw him.

    The fact the the OP mentions "big burly men" and their son being intimidated shows it is clearly biased against the people issuing the fine.



    You really need to stop wasting the councils time requesting footage and claiming tampering of evidence, you have already said you son dropped him so he was littering; it's as simple as that and it doesn't matter how long it was on the floor.

    Maybe you should put this much effort into helping your Son to stop using drugs.
    Originally posted by takman
    Reportedfor libel....wtf.
    • takman
    • By takman 9th Aug 18, 12:49 PM
    • 3,598 Posts
    • 3,221 Thanks
    takman
    Drugs? Wtf are you on about? It was a roll uo ciggarette.

    Ive screenshotted this.
    Originally posted by BitterVirtue
    So you didn't know that Cigarettes contain drugs?
    • BitterVirtue
    • By BitterVirtue 9th Aug 18, 12:53 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    BitterVirtue
    Not illegal drugs.

    He dropped ithe says because it was burning his hand, he then picked it up and put it in an ashtray thing on the wall across the road. He then went into work where he must have been followed and they stopped him outside his workplace.

    The council have said they have no video evidence at all and their only evidence is this statement from the jobsworth. They have said they want to just provide written evidence but we have requested he turns up at Court.
    • powerful_Rogue
    • By powerful_Rogue 9th Aug 18, 12:55 PM
    • 3,484 Posts
    • 5,141 Thanks
    powerful_Rogue
    Not illegal drugs.

    He dropped ithe says because it was burning his hand, he then picked it up and put it in an ashtray thing on the wall across the road. He then went into work where he must have been followed and they stopped him outside his workplace.

    The council have said they have no video evidence at all and their only evidence is this statement from the jobsworth. They have said they want to just provide written evidence but we have requested he turns up at Court.
    Originally posted by BitterVirtue

    No one has mentioned illegal drugs.


    He said, she said. Let your son have his day in court and the magistarte to decide.
    • BitterVirtue
    • By BitterVirtue 9th Aug 18, 1:10 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    BitterVirtue
    How dare you trivaise Mental Health you absolute tool.

    I would class self harming and suicide attempts as severe Mental Health wouldn't you? Yes he is on Medication and receives support but thats our problem not yours.

    All I asked for on here is a bit of advice and I have been met with idiots and clowns.

    Thanks for nothing.
    Last edited by BitterVirtue; 09-08-2018 at 1:52 PM.
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 9th Aug 18, 1:11 PM
    • 2,092 Posts
    • 1,263 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    Reportedfor libel....wtf.
    Originally posted by BitterVirtue
    How has that damaged the reputations of an anonymous person online unnamed son?
    Hi there! Weve had to remove your signature. Please check the Forum Rules if youre unsure why its been removed and, if still unsure, email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • comeandgo
    • By comeandgo 9th Aug 18, 1:15 PM
    • 2,139 Posts
    • 2,921 Thanks
    comeandgo
    Reportedfor libel....wtf.
    Originally posted by BitterVirtue
    Reported for offensive language.
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 9th Aug 18, 1:50 PM
    • 3,274 Posts
    • 2,973 Thanks
    Undervalued
    How dare you trivaise Mental Heathyou absolute tool.

    I would class self harming and suicide attempts as severe Mental Health wouln't you? Yes he is on Medication and receives support but thats our problem not yours.

    All I asked foron here is a bit of advice and I have been met with idiots and clowns.

    Thanks for nothing.
    Originally posted by BitterVirtue

    As far as I can see you have been given plenty of good advice. However because it doesn't coincide with your preconceptions you simply dismiss those that have helped as "idiots and clowns".

    I am not going to waste my time repeating what they have said as I rather doubt you will listen.
    • BitterVirtue
    • By BitterVirtue 9th Aug 18, 2:53 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    BitterVirtue
    As far as I can see you have been given plenty of good advice. However because it doesn't coincide with your preconceptions you simply dismiss those that have helped as "idiots and clowns".

    I am not going to waste my time repeating what they have said as I rather doubt you will listen.
    Originally posted by Undervalued
    Apologies to the ones who have given constructive advice and thank you very much.

    It was the keyboard warriors I was referring to.
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