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  • FIRST POST
    • BitterVirtue
    • By BitterVirtue 6th Aug 18, 6:26 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 0Thanks
    BitterVirtue
    Litter Fine please help
    • #1
    • 6th Aug 18, 6:26 PM
    Litter Fine please help 6th Aug 18 at 6:26 PM
    Hi all

    New to here and am after a bit of advice if possible?

    My Son was approached by what he describes as 2 big burly men who intimidated him and accused him of dropping a roll up end (My Son says he dropped it as it was burning his hand and he then picked it up and stubbed it out on one of those ash tray thingys on walls). He was issued with a FPN and said he wants to fight it as he doesn't believe he has done anything wrong. The place on the FPN is half a mile away from where the alleged offence took place so they have got the are and street name wrong.

    He says they followed him into his place of work (He works 4 hours a week).

    He suffers from severe depression and has self harmed and attempted to take his own life in the past and this has made him very down and upset about the whole thing.

    Anyway we have now received the Court papers and the 'Statement' from the jobsworth just repeats 'he was issued with a fine etc etc pay up pay up' that is basically what it says.

    After reviewing all this, they have sent a photocopy of the FPN and it has his place of work written on it in black pen.....I have the original one issued and it does not have this on, so it has clearly been tampered with!! where it says id checked is totally blank but on the copy they have sent with the Court Papers has his place of work clearly written in different handwriting to the original which doesn't have it on, my Son says they never asked him for ID, anyway they knew where he worked as they followed him and he had his uniform on with the company name on the shirt.

    Is this Perverting the course of Justice or just basic tampering with evidence? I have all the evidence and I even have letters from the council saying they don't have any footage after I asked for any footage. My local MP has also asked for the footage and the Council has just ignored her.

    Does anyone know where I stand on this? I am not condoning littering but there are surely mitigating circumstances here and the evidence has clearly been tampered with so if littering is an offence then I am sure what they have done is an offence too.

    I spoke to the Council today and the arrogant git on the other end said that it wasn't tampered with it was just 'additional information'.....if that was the case then why not write this 'additional information' on a separate sheet of paper? He also said that the docket was not evidence, even though it has a stamp saying exhibit SG1, so I am taking it as evidence.

    Thanks in advance for your replies.
Page 1
    • JJ Egan
    • By JJ Egan 6th Aug 18, 6:39 PM
    • 11,089 Posts
    • 4,806 Thanks
    JJ Egan
    • #2
    • 6th Aug 18, 6:39 PM
    • #2
    • 6th Aug 18, 6:39 PM
    Tampering

    Perverting the course of justice .
    You need to go and see a solicitor .
    Asking unqualified members of a forum wont help if your actual claims are true.
    • bris
    • By bris 6th Aug 18, 7:31 PM
    • 7,956 Posts
    • 6,951 Thanks
    bris
    • #3
    • 6th Aug 18, 7:31 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Aug 18, 7:31 PM
    You won't win, you will just cause more stress fighting it, pay up and put it to bed. What's a few quid compared to another mental health breakdown.
    • hollydays
    • By hollydays 6th Aug 18, 7:56 PM
    • 16,436 Posts
    • 12,529 Thanks
    hollydays
    • #4
    • 6th Aug 18, 7:56 PM
    • #4
    • 6th Aug 18, 7:56 PM
    Agreed. He's dropped a cigarette butt, it'll be lot less hassle to just pay up.
    In the scale of things it's a very small misdemeanour.
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 6th Aug 18, 8:50 PM
    • 2,471 Posts
    • 1,518 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    • #5
    • 6th Aug 18, 8:50 PM
    • #5
    • 6th Aug 18, 8:50 PM
    Hi all

    New to here and am after a bit of advice if possible?

    My Son was approached by what he describes as 2 big burly men who intimidated him and accused him of dropping a roll up end (My Son says he dropped it as it was burning his hand and he then picked it up and stubbed it out on one of those ash tray thingys on walls). He was issued with a FPN and said he wants to fight it as he doesn't believe he has done anything wrong. The place on the FPN is half a mile away from where the alleged offence took place so they have got the are and street name wrong.

    He says they followed him into his place of work (He works 4 hours a week).

    He suffers from severe depression and has self harmed and attempted to take his own life in the past and this has made him very down and upset about the whole thing.

    Anyway we have now received the Court papers and the 'Statement' from the jobsworth just repeats 'he was issued with a fine etc etc pay up pay up' that is basically what it says.

    After reviewing all this, they have sent a photocopy of the FPN and it has his place of work written on it in black pen.....I have the original one issued and it does not have this on, so it has clearly been tampered with!! where it says id checked is totally blank but on the copy they have sent with the Court Papers has his place of work clearly written in different handwriting to the original which doesn't have it on, my Son says they never asked him for ID, anyway they knew where he worked as they followed him and he had his uniform on with the company name on the shirt.

    Is this Perverting the course of Justice or just basic tampering with evidence? I have all the evidence and I even have letters from the council saying they don't have any footage after I asked for any footage. My local MP has also asked for the footage and the Council has just ignored her.

    Does anyone know where I stand on this? I am not chondoning littering but there are surely mitigating circumstances here and the evidence has clearly been tampered with so if littering is an offence then I am sure what they have done is an offence too.

    I spoke to the Council today and the arrogant git on the other end said that it wasn't tampered with it was just 'additional information'.....if that was the case then why not write this 'additional information' on a separate sheet of paper? He also said that the docket was not evidence, even though it has a stamp saying exhibit SG1, so I am taking it as evidence.

    Thanks in advance for your replies.
    Originally posted by BitterVirtue
    Ive not seen a council ticket for litter but I have seen several fixed penalty notices.

    It's not uncommon to issue a ticket and then complete the original notes. The official copy is often different to the defendants and it's never been an issue in court.

    He dropped the litter either pay up or contest it, but you're going to need a better defence to the one you're considering.
    Hi there! Weve had to remove your signature. Please check the Forum Rules if youre unsure why its been removed and, if still unsure, email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • hollydays
    • By hollydays 6th Aug 18, 10:37 PM
    • 16,436 Posts
    • 12,529 Thanks
    hollydays
    • #6
    • 6th Aug 18, 10:37 PM
    • #6
    • 6th Aug 18, 10:37 PM
    Also, being simply burly isn't a reason to be intimidated in itself,and I'm sure they get some very aggressive customers hence being in twos.
    I'm assuming he had no I/d hence why they followed him.
    I don't see any mitigating circumstances.
    Last edited by hollydays; 06-08-2018 at 10:40 PM.
    • reason2
    • By reason2 7th Aug 18, 8:17 AM
    • 334 Posts
    • 368 Thanks
    reason2
    • #7
    • 7th Aug 18, 8:17 AM
    • #7
    • 7th Aug 18, 8:17 AM
    people clearly arent reading the post.

    He dropped it, but picked it straight up and used a wall mounted ashtray.

    These people usually have body cams to support their ticket, ask for the footage, it should show him pick it up again. unless by magic it cuts off immediately after dropping it
    • MobileSaver
    • By MobileSaver 7th Aug 18, 8:34 AM
    • 1,438 Posts
    • 2,022 Thanks
    MobileSaver
    • #8
    • 7th Aug 18, 8:34 AM
    • #8
    • 7th Aug 18, 8:34 AM
    people clearly arent reading the post.

    He dropped it, but picked it straight up and used a wall mounted ashtray.
    Originally posted by reason2
    You clearly must be reading a different post to the rest of us; the OP does not say that he "picked it straight up" so the events could easily be that he picked it up only after the big burly men accused him of dropping it... (and hence was guilty as charged of littering.)
    Respect to 3 of the greatest actors of all time; amazing people who are totally believable as the characters they play & almost single-handedly make the shows they starred in:

    Peter Dinklage as Tyrion Lannister in Game of Thrones
    Daniel J. Travanti as Frank Furillo in Hill Street Blues
    Claire Danes as Carrie Mathison in Homeland
    • peter_the_piper
    • By peter_the_piper 7th Aug 18, 9:55 AM
    • 26,348 Posts
    • 35,674 Thanks
    peter_the_piper
    • #9
    • 7th Aug 18, 9:55 AM
    • #9
    • 7th Aug 18, 9:55 AM
    He implied that it was picked up promptly, it certainly did not say that he picked it up after the men approached him.
    I'd rather be an Optimist and be proved wrong than a Pessimist and be proved right.
    • missile
    • By missile 7th Aug 18, 10:08 AM
    • 9,744 Posts
    • 4,894 Thanks
    missile
    Pay up and learn not to drop litter.
    "A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members." ~ Mahatma Gandhi
    Ride hard or stay home
    • takman
    • By takman 7th Aug 18, 10:18 AM
    • 3,702 Posts
    • 3,353 Thanks
    takman
    He implied that it was picked up promptly, it certainly did not say that he picked it up after the men approached him.
    Originally posted by peter_the_piper
    It's just as likely that he dropped it on the floor and put it out with his foot (as it was hot) then picked it up once he noticed someone had saw him.

    The fact the the OP mentions "big burly men" and their son being intimidated shows it is clearly biased against the people issuing the fine.

    Hi all

    New to here and am after a bit of advice if possible?

    My Son was approached by what he describes as 2 big burly men who intimidated him and accused him of dropping a roll up end (My Son says he dropped it as it was burning his hand and he then picked it up and stubbed it out on one of those ash tray thingys on walls). He was issued with a FPN and said he wants to fight it as he doesn't believe he has done anything wrong. The place on the FPN is half a mile away from where the alleged offence took place so they have got the are and street name wrong.

    He says they followed him into his place of work (He works 4 hours a week).

    He suffers from severe depression and has self harmed and attempted to take his own life in the past and this has made him very down and upset about the whole thing.

    Anyway we have now received the Court papers and the 'Statement' from the jobsworth just repeats 'he was issued with a fine etc etc pay up pay up' that is basically what it says.

    After reviewing all this, they have sent a photocopy of the FPN and it has his place of work written on it in black pen.....I have the original one issued and it does not have this on, so it has clearly been tampered with!! where it says id checked is totally blank but on the copy they have sent with the Court Papers has his place of work clearly written in different handwriting to the original which doesn't have it on, my Son says they never asked him for ID, anyway they knew where he worked as they followed him and he had his uniform on with the company name on the shirt.

    Is this Perverting the course of Justice or just basic tampering with evidence? I have all the evidence and I even have letters from the council saying they don't have any footage after I asked for any footage. My local MP has also asked for the footage and the Council has just ignored her.

    Does anyone know where I stand on this? I am not condoning littering but there are surely mitigating circumstances here and the evidence has clearly been tampered with so if littering is an offence then I am sure what they have done is an offence too.

    I spoke to the Council today and the arrogant git on the other end said that it wasn't tampered with it was just 'additional information'.....if that was the case then why not write this 'additional information' on a separate sheet of paper? He also said that the docket was not evidence, even though it has a stamp saying exhibit SG1, so I am taking it as evidence.

    Thanks in advance for your replies.
    Originally posted by BitterVirtue
    You really need to stop wasting the councils time requesting footage and claiming tampering of evidence, you have already said you son dropped him so he was littering; it's as simple as that and it doesn't matter how long it was on the floor.

    Maybe you should put this much effort into helping your Son to stop using drugs.
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 7th Aug 18, 10:27 AM
    • 2,471 Posts
    • 1,518 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    It's just as likely that he dropped it on the floor and put it out with his foot (as it was hot) then picked it up once he noticed someone had saw him.

    The fact the the OP mentions "big burly men" and their son being intimidated shows it is clearly biased against the people issuing the fine.



    You really need to stop wasting the councils time requesting footage and claiming tampering of evidence, you have already said you son dropped him so he was littering; it's as simple as that and it doesn't matter how long it was on the floor.

    Maybe you should put this much effort into helping your Son to stop using drugs.
    Originally posted by takman
    Is the son on drugs?????
    Hi there! Weve had to remove your signature. Please check the Forum Rules if youre unsure why its been removed and, if still unsure, email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • bxboards
    • By bxboards 7th Aug 18, 10:28 AM
    • 1,597 Posts
    • 1,255 Thanks
    bxboards
    Too be honest, I really hate people littering and expecting people to clean up after them - I wish more people were fined, and littering was seen to be as anti-social as drink driving now is.

    He had learned a lesson, and the price is small for a lesson in how to be a better person, and to treat the area they live and those who live in it, with respect.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 7th Aug 18, 10:28 AM
    • 4,453 Posts
    • 5,842 Thanks
    waamo
    I find it amazing that a council employs big burly guys to walk around in pairs looking for people dropping litter.

    The area must be a right litter hotspot for them to do that.
    This space for hire.
    • takman
    • By takman 7th Aug 18, 10:43 AM
    • 3,702 Posts
    • 3,353 Thanks
    takman
    Is the son on drugs?????
    Originally posted by AndyMc.....
    Well i suppose he could be lighting a cigarette and holding it until it burn his fingers without smoking them, but that's unlikely
    • AndyMc.....
    • By AndyMc..... 7th Aug 18, 10:47 AM
    • 2,471 Posts
    • 1,518 Thanks
    AndyMc.....
    Well i suppose he could be lighting a cigarette and holding it until it burn his fingers without smoking them, but that's unlikely
    Originally posted by takman
    So you assume it's cannabis?
    Hi there! Weve had to remove your signature. Please check the Forum Rules if youre unsure why its been removed and, if still unsure, email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • eddddy
    • By eddddy 7th Aug 18, 10:56 AM
    • 7,073 Posts
    • 7,044 Thanks
    eddddy
    I find it amazing that a council employs big burly guys to walk around in pairs looking for people dropping litter.

    The area must be a right litter hotspot for them to do that.
    Originally posted by waamo
    Councils tend to subcontract this work out to private companies - who reportedly do sometimes employ rather unpleasant people.

    Also, the companies (and individual enforcement officers) are sometimes incentivised to issue tickets - so they can be over-zealous.

    Here's a news story about it: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/15/litter-police-paid-bonuses-hand-fines-public-investigation-finds/
    • takman
    • By takman 7th Aug 18, 10:57 AM
    • 3,702 Posts
    • 3,353 Thanks
    takman
    So you assume it's cannabis?
    Originally posted by AndyMc.....
    There is nothing in the OP to suggest it's cannabis.

    Are you saying that you don't consider the Nicotine contained within Tobacco a drug?
    • reason2
    • By reason2 7th Aug 18, 1:34 PM
    • 334 Posts
    • 368 Thanks
    reason2
    I assume you dont drink tea coffee or alcohol nor use painkillers or the sort otherwise your post is pointless and hypocritical..

    in fact, it is pointless regardless.
    • sheramber
    • By sheramber 7th Aug 18, 1:36 PM
    • 5,316 Posts
    • 3,977 Thanks
    sheramber
    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/enforcement-officers-issuing-fixed-penalty-notices

    Accidental littering

    Don!!!8217;t issue FPNs for accidental littering, for example if something falls from someone!!!8217;s pocket.

    Only issue FPNs where there is evidence of intent to drop litter.

    Give offenders the chance to pick up litter before you issue an FPN. Warn them that you will issue an FPN if they don!!!8217;t.
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