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  • FIRST POST
    • devious
    • By devious 6th Aug 18, 5:15 PM
    • 4Posts
    • 0Thanks
    devious
    Post Office Broadband
    • #1
    • 6th Aug 18, 5:15 PM
    Post Office Broadband 6th Aug 18 at 5:15 PM
    The Post Office would not let me out of their 18-month contract, without a steep £240 early termination fee.

    When asked they refused to tell me how and when they sent my contract after concluding the contract by phone.

    On further reading, it seems they also failed to give me a proper cancellation form, notify me of delivery charges, and router fee.

    The ADR process failed as it was tl;dr, and they said they agreed with PO almost identically, and said that maybe I should go to court. Martin Lewis is right , they have no teeth.

    I just wish I read more of the post office reviews before entering into the deal.

    Anyway, I am happy to say that it seems like they breached contract terms. Their is not a lot of recendents on the new consumer law outside
    -fit for use
    -on time
    -care and attention

    The one they all miss is a failure to provide terms and contract. Because it's obvious.

    Consumer rights act 2015
    50 Information about the trader or service to be binding
    (3)Without prejudice to subsection (1), any information provided by the trader in accordance with regulation 9, 10 or 13 of the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (SI 2013/3134) is to be treated as included as a term of the contract.

    The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013
    Information to be provided before making a distance contract 13.—(1) Before the consumer is bound by a distance contract, the trader—
    must give or make available to the consumer the information listed in Schedule 2 in a
    clear and comprehensible manner, and in a way appropriate to the means of distance communication used, and
    if a right to cancel exists, must give or make available to the consumer a cancellation form as set out in part B of Schedule 3.


    Confirmation of distance contracts
    16.—(1) In the case of a distance contract the trader must give the consumer confirmation of the contract on a durable medium.

    For all those fighting the big fight good luck.
Page 1
    • DJC1690
    • By DJC1690 7th Aug 18, 7:50 AM
    • 48 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    DJC1690
    • #2
    • 7th Aug 18, 7:50 AM
    • #2
    • 7th Aug 18, 7:50 AM
    heres the Terms and conditions from Post Office Broadband by the way

    INTRODUCTORY OFFER TERMS & CONDITIONSPOST OFFICE BROADBAND NETWORK AREAS ONLY. All introductory offers available from 1st May 2018 to 30th September 2018 for new sign ups with a working phone line only (excludes cable phone lines). Where a new phone line is required, an installation charge will apply. You will be provided details of these charges before you place your order. Fixed price refers to monthly broadband charge, does not include call charges and any extras you choose.
    UNLIMITED BROADBAND: £18.00 per month for a 18 month contract plus £7 upfront. £23.00 per month for a 12 month contract plus £0 upfront. £29.00 per month for a 24 month contract plus £7 upfront. Full monthly price (currently £29.00 per month) thereafter. Price includes line rental.
    FIXED PRICE PROMISE: For all introductory offers (excludes Broadband Connect), the advertised monthly broadband charge will not increase during the minimum contract period. However, other charges, such as call charges, call packages and any other features which you add, may change at any time during your contract. The terms of your contract may also change at any time. We’ll tell you about important changes in advance, and if a change is detrimental you’ll be able to end your contract without any fees.
    NON-INTRODUCTORY OFFER - BROADBAND CONNECT: 12 month contract. Currently £29 a month plus £7 upfront for new customers with a working phone line only (excludes cable phone lines). Price includes line rental. Only suitable for web browsing and email and not for streaming, movie downloads, gaming or sending/receiving large files. Where a new phone line is required, an installation charge will apply. You will be provided with details of these charges before you place your order. More information on Broadband Connect.
    GENERAL: All broadband packages are billed monthly and assume that you will use online billing and will provide a valid email address in order to receive your online bill. If you would like paper bills, the charge is £1.50 per bill for all broadband packages. Large print and braille bills are always available at no charge, please call us to opt in. Broadband services and offers are all subject to status, acceptance and availability in your area. Call charges and Fair and Acceptable Use Policy apply. If you sign up to any of these offers, you’ll be subject to the Post Office Broadband terms and conditions.


    ive done you work to get this info for you so next time when you going into a Contract with anybody Read ther Terms and conditions so you know whats T/C are ps post office have a right to chg you a fee if you Break the T/C so you don't have a leg to stand on about this... ( You want to Leave Post Office becoz therm did not provides the T/C for you?)


    hmmmm you got a pc with ADSL or FTTC/FTTP and you cba to go on ther PostOffice website to get the T/C but you have a time to post this? come on so I think you need to do more work befor posting this sort of thing tbh so its you Fault if you didnot listening to guy or lady on the phone teling you T/C out to you on the phone the T/C 1st in the place then going into 18 Contract I will say this agring it you fault tbh.


    have a nice day
    • devious
    • By devious 7th Aug 18, 1:44 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    devious
    • #3
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:44 PM
    re:consumer rights and terms explained
    • #3
    • 7th Aug 18, 1:44 PM
    ive done you work to get this info for you so next time when you going into a Contract with anybody Read ther Terms and conditions so you know whats T/C are ps post office have a right to chg you a fee if you Break the T/C so you don't have a leg to stand on about this... ( You want to Leave Post Office becoz therm did not provides the T/C for you?)


    hmmmm you got a pc with ADSL or FTTC/FTTP and you cba to go on ther PostOffice website to get the T/C but you have a time to post this? come on so I think you need to do more work befor posting this sort of thing tbh so its you Fault if you didnot listening to guy or lady on the phone teling you T/C out to you on the phone the T/C 1st in the place then going into 18 Contract I will say this agring it you fault tbh.


    have a nice day
    Originally posted by DJC1690
    Key point of this story
    Not only can traders rely on "you should have read the terms". consumers can too. Because the law makes a trader add terms that inform a consumer of their rights. And the absence of them makes the contract void/voidable.

    "
    54Consumer!!!8217;s rights to enforce terms about services
    (1)The consumer!!!8217;s rights under this section and sections 55 and 56 do not affect any rights that the contract provides for, if those are not inconsistent.
    (2)In this section and section 55 a reference to a service conforming to a contract is a reference to!!!8212;
    (a)the service being performed in accordance with section 49, or
    (b)the service conforming to a term that section 50 requires to be treated as included in the contract and that relates to the performance of the service.
    (3)If the service does not conform to the contract, the consumer!!!8217;s rights (and the provisions about them and when they are available) are!!!8212;
    (a)the right to require repeat performance (see section 55);
    (b)the right to a price reduction (see section 56).
    (4)If the trader is in breach of a term that section 50 requires to be treated as included in the contract but that does not relate to the service, the consumer has the right to a price reduction (see section 56 for provisions about that right and when it is available).
    (5)If the trader is in breach of what the contract requires under section 52 (performance within a reasonable time), the consumer has the right to a price reduction (see section 56 for provisions about that right and when it is available).
    (6)This section and sections 55 and 56 do not prevent the consumer seeking other remedies for a breach of a term to which any of subsections (3) to (5) applies, instead of or in addition to a remedy referred to there (but not so as to recover twice for the same loss).
    (7)Those other remedies include any of the following that is open to the consumer in the circumstances!!!8212;
    (a)claiming damages;
    (b)seeking to recover money paid where the consideration for payment of the money has failed;
    (c)seeking specific performance;
    (d)seeking an order for specific implement;
    (e)relying on the breach against a claim by the trader under the contract;
    (f)exercising a right to treat the contract as at an end.
    "

    Response
    Dear DJC1690,
    You may be confusing commercial law, with really really really old consumer law, and not be aware of the changes in 2015. In commercial law you can say tough more often. But in consumer law, I believe it!!!8217;s called benefiting from consumer ignorance. I think that one carries prison time for directors.

    A roofing company director has been jailed for 27 months for fraudulent trading in several communities across Buckinghamshire.....Then Mr Kunaratnam would price up the job, offer a misleading discount and get a signed contract. No explanation was given of a cooling-off period or cancellation rights, and by signing the contract, the residents had inadvertently waived their statutory cancellation rights. Contractors would turn up to start the work either the next day or a few days later.

    Done the work for me? or for yourself
    I'm not a lawyer or psychologist but the type of post you just did was helpful only to yourself. Some might reasonably assume that you were paid to post it. And sometimes it's people's anger or acceptance at the way they have been treated leads them to treat others with the same disdain. And that's why there is the Human rights act.

    Now back to the legal bit.
    I posted because a lot of consumers are not aware of their extra consumer right. And !!!8220;selfishly!!!8221;, I did not want the same thing to happen to them. Often agencies miss one of the Consumer rights Act 2015.

    "What statutory rights are there under a services contract?
    49.Service to be performed with reasonable care and skill
    50.Information about the trader or service to be binding<<<<<<whoa what's this one.
    51.Reasonable price to be paid for a service
    52.Service to be performed within a reasonable time
    53.Relation to other law on contract terms"


    Consumer terms
    So terms are not just the ones "anyone may reasonably know how to access", as you have posted tl;dr they also include special legal terms and statutory terms, and things said on the phone, and written to the customer. They, no matter how outlandish, are to be including in the contract.


    64Exclusion from assessment of fairness
    (1)A term of a consumer contract may not be assessed for fairness under section 62 to the extent that!!!8212;
    (a)it specifies the main subject matter of the contract, or
    (b)the assessment is of the appropriateness of the price payable under the contract by comparison with the goods, digital content or services supplied under it.
    (2)Subsection (1) excludes a term from an assessment under section 62 only if it is transparent and prominent.
    (3)A term is transparent for the purposes of this Part if it is expressed in plain and intelligible language and (in the case of a written term) is legible.
    (4)A term is prominent for the purposes of this section if it is brought to the consumer's attention in such a way that an average consumer would be aware of the term.
    (5)In subsection (4) !!!8220;average consumer!!!8221; means a consumer who is reasonably well-informed, observant and circumspect.
    (6)This section does not apply to a term of a contract listed in Part 1 of Schedule 2.



    They are required terms that must be included to protect the consumer, and protect competition in the market.

    50Information about the trader or service to be binding
    (1)Every contract to supply a service is to be treated as including as a term of the contract anything that is said or written to the consumer, by or on behalf of the trader, about the trader or the service, if!!!8212;
    (a)it is taken into account by the consumer when deciding to enter into the contract, or
    (b)it is taken into account by the consumer when making any decision about the service after entering into the contract.
    (2)Anything taken into account by the consumer as mentioned in subsection (1)(a) or (b) is subject to!!!8212;
    (a)anything that qualified it and was said or written to the consumer by the trader on the same occasion, and
    (b)any change to it that has been expressly agreed between the consumer and the trader (before entering into the contract or later).
    (3)Without prejudice to subsection (1), any information provided by the trader in accordance with regulation 9, 10 or 13 of the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (SI 2013/3134) is to be treated as included as a term of the contract.
    (4)A change to any of the information mentioned in subsection (3), made before entering into the contract or later, is not effective unless expressly agreed between the consumer and the trader.
    (5)See section 54 for a consumer's rights if the trader is in breach of a term that this section requires to be treated as included in a contract.
    Legally binding contract
    Information must be supplied before a consumer is bound by a distance selling contract, must be given or made available to the consumer in a durable format. For the illusion of doubt, a durable format means email or paper.

    Information to be provided before making a distance contract
    13.!!!8212;(1) Before the consumer is bound by a distance contract, the trader!!!8212;

    (a)must give or make available to the consumer the information listed in Schedule 2 in a clear and comprehensible manner, and in a way appropriate to the means of distance communication used, and
    (b)if a right to cancel exists, must give or make available to the consumer a cancellation form as set out in part B of Schedule 3.
    (2) In so far as the information is provided on a durable medium, it must be legible.

    (3) The information referred to in paragraphs (l), (m) and (n) of Schedule 2 may be provided by means of the model instructions on cancellation set out in part A of Schedule 3; and a trader who has supplied those instructions to the consumer, correctly filled in, is to be treated as having complied with paragraph (1) in respect of those paragraphs.

    (4) Where a distance contract is concluded through a means of distance communication which allows limited space or time to display the information!!!8212;

    (a)the information listed in paragraphs (a), (b), (f), (g), (h), (l) and (s) of Schedule 2 must be provided on that means of communication in accordance with paragraphs (1) and (2), but
    (b)the other information required by paragraph (1) may be provided in another appropriate way.
    (5) If the trader has not complied with paragraph (1) in respect of paragraph (g), (h) or (m) of Schedule 2, the consumer is not to bear the charges or costs referred to in those paragraphs.

    (6) Any information that the trader gives the consumer as required by this regulation is to be treated as included as a term of the contract.

    (7) A change to any of that information, made before entering into the contract or later, is not effective unless expressly agreed between the consumer and the trader.
    For instance, in a "distance selling contracts" those concluded by distance, a trader must send you a contract in a "durable medium".

    Confirmation of distance contracts
    16.!!!8212;(1) In the case of a distance contract the trader must give the consumer confirmation of the contract on a durable medium.

    (2) The confirmation must include all the information referred to in Schedule 2 unless the trader has already provided that information to the consumer on a durable medium prior to the conclusion of the distance contract.

    (3) If the contract is for the supply of digital content not on a tangible medium and the consumer has given the consent and acknowledgment referred to in regulation 37(1)(a) and (b), the confirmation must include confirmation of the consent and acknowledgement.

    (4) The confirmation must be provided within a reasonable time after the conclusion of the contract, but in any event!!!8212;

    (a)not later than the time of delivery of any goods supplied under the contract, and
    (b)before performance begins of any service supplied under the contract.
    (5) For the purposes of paragraph (4), the confirmation is treated as provided as soon as the trader has sent it or done what is necessary to make it available to the consumer.


    Weird sounding terms?
    Lol, this one, Apparently if a term sounds ambiguous, then the term must be interpreted to benefit the consumer.

    Contract terms that may have different meanings
    (1)If a term in a consumer contract, or a consumer notice, could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail.
    (2)Subsection (1) does not apply to the construction of a term or a notice in proceedings on an application for an injunction or interdict under paragraph 3 of Schedule 3.

    Unfair terms
    I suppose you have heard of unfair terms before, well they got an upgrade! It even if a term is shown to you and you agree to it, the law says that if it's illegal by any act, it will not apply, unless you want it too. Here is a list of all the unfair terms in consumer rights act 2015.
    The effect of 1 unfair term of a term can mean that term is void if you want it to be

    However not you do not inform a consumer of the special terms means the contract cannot be binding.

    "Information to be provided before making a distance contract
    13.!!!8212;(1) Before the consumer is bound by a distance contract, the trader!!!8212;
    (a)must give or make available to the consumer the information listed in Schedule 2 in a
    clear and comprehensible manner, and in a way appropriate to the means of distance communication used, and
    (b)if a right to cancel exists, must give or make available to the consumer a cancellation form as set out in part B of Schedule 3. - The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013"


    Smoking gun
    Oh and I almost forgot, the "burden of proof" is on the trader. That is they must prove that you saw the terms before the contract was made, or during and certainly before the service goes live. If they refuse to submit evidence in after sending a letter before action, you have a good case.

    Burden of proof in relation to off-premises and distance contracts
    17.!!!8212;(1) In case of dispute about the trader!!!8217;s compliance with any provision of regulations 10 to 16, it is for the trader to show that the provision was complied with.

    (2) That does not apply to proceedings!!!8212;

    (a)for an offence under regulation 19, or
    (b)relating to compliance with an injunction, interdict or order under regulation 45.
    Except when it comes to canceling. The consumer must prove that they sent a clear sign to cancel. So send it by email or other recordable means. FTLOG please use recorded delivery not proof of posting. Although the courts accept the sent rule, it makes it easier to say, "sally signed for it at 10:45am."

    Exercise of the right to withdraw or cancel
    32.!!!8212;(1) To withdraw an offer to enter into a distance or off-premises contract, the consumer must inform the trader of the decision to withdraw it.

    (2) To cancel a contract under regulation 29(1), the consumer must inform the trader of the decision to cancel it.

    (3) To inform the trader under paragraph (2) the consumer may either!!!8212;

    (a)use a form following the model cancellation form in part B of Schedule 3, or
    (b)make any other clear statement setting out the decision to cancel the contract.
    (4) If the trader gives the consumer the option of filling in and submitting such a form or other statement on the trader!!!8217;s website!!!8212;

    (a)the consumer need not use it, but
    (b)if the consumer does, the trader must communicate to the consumer an acknowledgement of receipt of the cancellation on a durable medium without delay.
    (5) Where the consumer informs the trader under paragraph (2) by sending a communication, the consumer is to be treated as having cancelled the contract in the cancellation period if the communication is sent before the end of the period.

    (6) In case of dispute it is for the consumer to show that the contract was cancelled in the cancellation period in accordance with this regulation.

    In the really really really old days
    However, before the reliance on the Consumer rights act, a good defense is the Red hand rule.

    The genesis of the so-called red hand rule is to be found in Spurling v Bradshaw Ltd, where

    Lord Denning said: <<legal VVIP
    !!!8220;[T]he more unreasonable a clause is, the greater the notice which must be
    given of it. Some clauses would need to be printed in red ink with a red hand
    pointing to it before the notice could be held to be sufficient.!!!8221;

    Congrats for getting this far, and sorry for all the quotes as after 10 years absence from the forum I'm new. Dm me for the links and please post them here for others.

    Also getting this far this means you have a good chance of KOing in court by making a small claim. I really recommend The complaining cow, CAB, Martin lewis, Which?, each other, and google for free help.
    Law centre
    Law clinic
    Law works

    Also a lawyer should give you a free no obligation approx 30mins.

    !!!8220;Law is for everyone redress is for the rich, or the very determined.!!!8221; - unknown

    Lastly
    Before the EU, people in power said tough a lot, they restricted legal aid, and now we have people who restrict posts in forums. Oh big brother.

    A lot of legal forums are now dead, and legal centres are few and far between. And access to the internet facilitated by the post office and other internet provides is not universal.

    Good luck and keep on getting allegedly paid to post.
    Last edited by devious; 07-08-2018 at 8:09 PM.
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