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  • FIRST POST
    • JSY
    • By JSY 6th Aug 18, 2:26 PM
    • 14Posts
    • 13Thanks
    JSY
    Smart Park PCN - non UK
    • #1
    • 6th Aug 18, 2:26 PM
    Smart Park PCN - non UK 6th Aug 18 at 2:26 PM
    Hi All

    Apologies if this is covered elsewhere but I have not had chance to read all the threads to find what I was looking for.

    I am a non-UK resident (channel Islands) and have recently travelled to the UK where I collected a Hire Car for two days to get me out and about.

    I went out for a family meal to a F&B's for food and used their car park, which was the same car park for a KFC - was on a retail park.

    The car park was a 2 hour parking limit, which in all honesty I did not notice on arrival or departure.
    with my total stay being clocked at 2h 13m 9s.

    Having returned home I received in the post a letter from my hire company that a PCN had been issued, along with a copy of the PCN (in the hire companies name) for the car which I hired and that they had passed my details on to Smart Park accordingly.

    The Hire company have also presented me with an invoice for the admin fee, but that's another story and I will challenge that accordingly.

    As yet I have not received a letter direct from the Parking company with my details on it, confirming I have to pay the PCN and do not plan to pay anything prior to this or even on receipt.

    My questions are:

    1) With me being a non UK resident will I still receive a PCN in the post?

    2) Being a non UK resident can they still enforce a PCN on me?

    3) Is it right that the Hire company can give out my details out like this without me being asked prior?

    4) Can I still appeal having gone over any grace period, if it goes that far?

    Many thanks in advance for your help.
Page 1
    • JSY
    • By JSY 8th Aug 18, 9:46 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    JSY
    • #2
    • 8th Aug 18, 9:46 AM
    • #2
    • 8th Aug 18, 9:46 AM
    can anyone offer any advice on the above please??
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 8th Aug 18, 10:01 AM
    • 3,783 Posts
    • 6,226 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    • #3
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:01 AM
    • #3
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:01 AM
    Smart are very unlikely to go to court - the only place that can make you pay.

    Your main issue will be with the Admin fee and getting it back. You should exhaust the hire company's appeal system then go to the hire industry's ADR to get the money back
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to RTFM - the Civil Procedure Rules
    2. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend- See #1
    3. Failing to RTFCL - the Court letters
    4. Template defences that say nothing - See #1
    5. Forgetting about the Witness Statement - See #3
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 8th Aug 18, 10:04 AM
    • 9,666 Posts
    • 12,731 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #4
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:04 AM
    • #4
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:04 AM
    There is grace period for in and out which is more
    than 13 mins anyway.

    Hire companies will give out details but does that matter,

    The Channel Islands fall into two separate self-governing bailiwicks, the Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Bailiwick of Jersey. Both are British Crown dependencies, and neither is part of the United Kingdom.

    Assume the other small islands are the same.

    If you do hear from them, reply with a address in the CI

    Little or nothing they can do

    Make sure you speak to the hire company
    as they may pay the amount and charge it your card

    You need to act on this today and advise the hire company
    to tell the PPC to write to your direct thereby dismissing
    any claim against the hire company
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 8th Aug 18, 10:15 AM
    • 38,015 Posts
    • 85,358 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #5
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:15 AM
    • #5
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:15 AM
    Your priority is to make sure the hire Co do not pay the PCN on your behalf. When you complain about the disgusting admin fee, tell them in no uncertain terms that you are dealing with it and they must not pay the PCN as it is not a fine or penalty and is therefore outwith the hire Ts and Cs.

    Then, wait to see if you get a NTH. Come back here if that happens.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • JSY
    • By JSY 8th Aug 18, 10:30 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    JSY
    • #6
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:30 AM
    • #6
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:30 AM
    Hi


    Many thanks for the advice.


    I have already called them and challenged the 'admin fee' with the hire company and told them I would not pay this as it took them 11 days to notify me of the charge, they date stamped the letter they received. And also that I would challenge the PCN should it reach me.


    I will write to the hire company to confirm my discussions and my request to cancel the fee.
    should I be asking on what basis they have given my details or a copy of the details sent?
    or is that just pulling the tigers tail a bit too much?


    Not received anything addressed to me directly yet so will wait and see if Smart Parking come chasing me.


    thanks again
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 8th Aug 18, 10:38 AM
    • 3,455 Posts
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    The Slithy Tove
    • #7
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:38 AM
    • #7
    • 8th Aug 18, 10:38 AM
    As far as challenging the hire company fee, you need to be crystal clear with them. Forget how long they took to notify you, that's irrelevant and not a good argument. It all comes down to the terms and conditions in the rental. Go and find what you signed, and then look at them very carefully. Often they'll talk about "fines" and "penalties", and their charges for handling such things. What they were sent by the parking company was neither. They will refuse to accept this, but it has to be the basis of your challenge. The Ts &Cs may have a get-out (for them) allowing them to impose their admin fees for other things, such as what they have received, in which case you have an uphill battle.

    Regarding the parking charge itself, if you have a copy, then it may well be worth contacting the PPC directly (post or email) in order to deflect them away from the hire company. Simply challenge it on the usual grounds, but ensure you make clear what your address is for all future correspondence. They cannot take you to court.
    • JSY
    • By JSY 8th Aug 18, 11:03 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    JSY
    • #8
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:03 AM
    • #8
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:03 AM
    So even though the copy of the PCN is not in my name you think I should contact them?
    Surely for them to chase me for payment they have to present me with the PCN directly, addressed to me don't they?


    Sorry for all the questions
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 8th Aug 18, 11:15 AM
    • 38,015 Posts
    • 85,358 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #9
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:15 AM
    • #9
    • 8th Aug 18, 11:15 AM
    It hooks it away from the ignorant hire company. The scammers could go after the registered keeper if they got no response from the hirer.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • JSY
    • By JSY 8th Aug 18, 12:05 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    JSY
    Thanks again for all your help, it is appreciated.
    Hire company have been contacted and the Parking company (scammers) are next.

    Any recommendations on a template to use to advise them to contact me (hirer) directly going forward?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 8th Aug 18, 2:22 PM
    • 20,583 Posts
    • 32,506 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Thanks again for all your help, it is appreciated.
    Hire company have been contacted and the Parking company (scammers) are next.

    Any recommendations on a template to use to advise them to contact me (hirer) directly going forward?
    Originally posted by JSY
    In the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1 there's a bespoke 'hirer' initial appeal template written by Edna Basher. Make sure you do not identify who the driver was. Your role in this is as the vehicle's keeper (for the period of hire) and hirer.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • JSY
    • By JSY 9th Aug 18, 5:19 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    JSY
    Update 08.08.18


    Received a call from the Hire Co. following my challenge of the 'admin fee' on the grounds that it was not a 'Fine' or 'Penalty'.
    Would not reduce or credit this unless I have a confirmation of the cancellation of the PCN.
    The responses given were very scripted and when I challenged anything she ever went quiet or repeated the same thing over and over again.


    While on the phone I asked them what information they had provided to the Parking Co.
    It was confirmed that my full name and address had been provided to them in writing.
    So I asked for a copy of this written confirmation supplied to the Parking Co. so I could present this in my case and create a timeline of events, only to be told that they do not store that information!
    So a major international hire company formally writes to a third party parking Co, with my personal data and does not keep a copy!!! to which I am told that is correct.
    Do they not have to keep a copy for data protection, etc..??


    They confirmed that they would not pay the 'fine' on my behalf and Liability was now with myself.


    Would not put me through to the department that processed this as they do not talk to customers apparently.
    Asked to speak to a line manager and would not put me through to anyone and would have to wait for them to call me again if someone becomes available.


    I find it staggering that these people can get away with this, with someone else's personal data.


    Still not heard from the Parking Co as yet, all I know is that they have been given my details some time between 16th July and 26th July.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Aug 18, 7:03 PM
    • 20,583 Posts
    • 32,506 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    So a major international hire company formally writes to a third party parking Co, with my personal data and does not keep a copy!!!
    A couple of things - if they are a large hire company it's quite likely they will be a member of the BVRLA (trade association) which has agreed a protocol with the BPA for dealing with private parking charges. Check out their paperwork/website to see if they include the BVRLA logo. Read the Mem of Understanding to get the hang of the agreement, which may allow you to go for the jugular (or at least invoke their ADR facility).

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/9b0iavad3aqeh28/BPA%20BVRLA%20MoU.pdf?dl=0

    And as they are holding and have used your personal data, send them a SAR to check exactly what they have on file for you. You need to be pointed and assertive and be precise by giving them no ambiguities about what information you require. Here is a thread discussing the SAR process and how to construct a comprehensive SAR. There will be a myriad of other similar advice elsewhere on the net - via a Google search.

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5849784
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 09-08-2018 at 7:29 PM.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 9th Aug 18, 8:57 PM
    • 3,455 Posts
    • 5,063 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    Make sure you do not identify who the driver was. Your role in this is as the vehicle's keeper (for the period of hire) and hirer.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Doesn't really matter if the OP does out themselves as the driver. They are pretty much untouchable due to location.


    Received a call from the Hire Co. following my challenge of the 'admin fee' on the grounds that it was not a 'Fine' or 'Penalty'.
    Would not reduce or credit this unless I have a confirmation of the cancellation of the PCN.
    Originally posted by JSY
    Time to stop doing this by phone (I know they called you in this case) and start doing everything in writing. Have they actually taken any money from you? Presuming you have checked the Ts & Cs, you write to them, informing them that the are breaching their own terms (and why), and you will not be paying them, and any additional money taken from your card will be challenged immediately with the card company.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Aug 18, 10:38 PM
    • 20,583 Posts
    • 32,506 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Doesn't really matter if the OP does out themselves as the driver. They are pretty much untouchable due to location.
    Originally posted by The Slithy Tove
    Yep, agreed.

    Advising on too many threads at the same time! Brain meltdown!
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • JSY
    • By JSY 10th Aug 18, 11:36 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    JSY
    Hi again


    Many thanks for all the help and advise, after my call I emailed them reiterating the details of the call and my formal request for copies of all personal data, relating to myself, that has been supplies to PPC and how this has been processed within their company - Under EU regulation 2016/679 !!!8211; Right to Access.


    No money taken at present that I am aware of - company credit card so will double check.
    I have again noted that I dispute their invoice for 'Admin Fee' and the ground of T&C's and look to recover any charges levied with my card provider.


    Will have a read up regarding BVRLA having printed off the Mem of Understanding.


    will see where it goes.
    • JSY
    • By JSY 10th Aug 18, 7:34 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    JSY
    Ok, so I have come home today to find a PCN in the post, now addressed to myself for the above. It is dated the 30th July so has taken 10 days to reach me.

    Ignoring the 14 days notice, etc when should I send in my appeal as hirer/keeper?

    The original parking was on the 5th July.

    Do I go with the template stating that they have not supplied me with the correct documents, or do I challenge on grace period?

    Sorry if I sound a bit dim when asking all these questions, first time I have had to go through this process and hopefully the last.

    Thank you again for all the help, it is very much appreciated.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 10th Aug 18, 8:36 PM
    • 38,015 Posts
    • 85,358 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Thank you for your correspondence regarding PCN No XXXXXX, I herby confirm that I was the hirer and keeper at date of event.
    Since I am a non UK resident, you must be aware that the POFA 2012 does not apply and therefore I as keeper on the date of event cannot be held liable.

    You must also be aware that under paragraph 13 of Schedule 4 of the POFA, you cannot attempt to transfer liability back to the hire company now that you have been informed that I was the hirer.

    You now have the choice of contacting the driver, who will not be named, or cancelling the charge.

    Your name here (hirer and keeper at date of event).
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 10-08-2018 at 8:52 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • JSY
    • By JSY 12th Aug 18, 2:14 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    JSY
    Thank you again for your help and advice.
    I have submitted the above statement, applied to myself, on the appeal and await their response.
    will let you know once i have heard back from them.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 12th Aug 18, 4:19 PM
    • 10,695 Posts
    • 10,083 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    Since I am a non UK resident, you must be aware that the POFA 2012 does not apply and therefore I as keeper on the date of event cannot be held liable..
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Where on earth does it say that in POFA?
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