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  • FIRST POST
    • Norma Norman
    • By Norma Norman 6th Aug 18, 2:24 PM
    • 8Posts
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    Norma Norman
    Care Home fees.
    • #1
    • 6th Aug 18, 2:24 PM
    Care Home fees. 6th Aug 18 at 2:24 PM
    My Mother in Law suffers from dementia and lives in sheltered accommodation. She pays all her rent, care costs, etc.

    My wife is getting upset because the carers are not very good carers. They don't launder properly, don't clean the flat properly etc. We feel that it would be better if my wife did certain things like the above and say helped her have a shower things would be better. We would still leave a lot of things like taking her to and from meals in the resident lounge/dining room to the carers.
    Now, if my wife did this she would have to give up her part time job and that is not economically viable. So the thought is that if she took £500 per month to compensate for her loss of salary AND payment for providing care would this cause problems in the future when the time comes for her to enter a care home. That is, would the Local Authority try to claw back the payments my wife would receive?
Page 2
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 6th Aug 18, 3:17 PM
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    Comms69
    Why not?

    My relative gives his father much better consistent care than he was getting with the 'professional' carers. He gave up work in order to be available and his Dad much prefers having him around.
    Originally posted by Mojisola
    Because 'you do, for family'.


    I would never accept money for something like that.
    • onomatopoeia99
    • By onomatopoeia99 6th Aug 18, 3:18 PM
    • 4,489 Posts
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    onomatopoeia99
    £25,000 a year FT equiv - to care for your own parent??
    Originally posted by Comms69

    Sounds like it. So?


    Given you posed it as a question, are you suggesting that people's time becomes less valuable when they are working for a family member?
    INTP, nerd, libertarian and scifi geek.
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    • elsien
    • By elsien 6th Aug 18, 3:20 PM
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    elsien
    Because 'you do, for family'.


    I would never accept money for something like that.
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Depends on the circumstances. I couldn't be a carer for parent - we clash too much and I'd probably turn into a granny batterer.
    But if I did want to, and she wanted me to, I still have a mortgage to pay. So if I couldn't afford to be her carer full time unless I was paid to do so, in order to keep a roof over my head, then why not? Yes you "do" for family. As long as it's practicable to do so, and that point varies hugely between families and how many others there are to help out.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 6th Aug 18, 3:25 PM
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    Comms69
    Sounds like it. So?


    Given you posed it as a question, are you suggesting that people's time becomes less valuable when they are working for a family member?
    Originally posted by onomatopoeia99


    Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.


    And further more it shouldn't be almost double the going rate, given most carers are on minimum wage.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 6th Aug 18, 3:27 PM
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    Comms69
    Depends on the circumstances. I couldn't be a carer for parent - we clash too much and I'd probably turn into a granny batterer.
    But if I did want to, and she wanted me to, I still have a mortgage to pay. So if I couldn't afford to be her carer full time unless I was paid to do so, in order to keep a roof over my head, then why not? Yes you "do" for family. As long as it's practicable to do so, and that point varies hugely between families and how many others there are to help out.
    Originally posted by elsien
    Absolutely, but that money could provide the patient (for want of a better word) with care everyday.


    With cover for holidays, illness, with insurance to cover any mistakes etc.
    • Linton
    • By Linton 6th Aug 18, 3:36 PM
    • 9,572 Posts
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    Linton
    The problem I see isnt an attorney using a donor's money to pay for enhanced care should that be reasonably justified as being in the donor's best interest.


    The doubtful part is the attorney paying themselves. It is difficult to see how the wife is going to dispassionately check that the carer (herself) is actually value for money and is working the contracted hours (is there a contract?) to the standard required etc etc. Can she sack herself? As an ex-attorney I would not have wanted to put myself in that impossible position.


    If extra care is required it is much better to pay a professional even at greater expense.


    Perhaps it is relevent that an attorney cannot pay themselves for their time carrying out their duties as an attorney. The most they can do is to claim documented reasonable expenses.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 6th Aug 18, 3:37 PM
    • 22,284 Posts
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    lisyloo
    Elsien, she has dementia. Mother in Law is always unhappy. She wants to be dead! My wife has joint Power of Attorney with her sister.
    I sympathise, sounds very much like my MIL until recently her medication was increased and she's much happier.


    Sorry of this is a dumb question but have you spoken to the doctor recently about medication. I ask that as it appeared to make a big difference to my MIL on a couple of occassions. The first time she was given anti-depressants.


    As a relative I would advise you and your wife against taking on the care.
    Professionals can let the comments go over their head as they are not emotionally involved.
    I expect your MIL can be vile at times (no offence) and say things that are hurtful. This can be very hard for family to deal with emotionally as family have a way of getting under your skin.


    Any payments to family with be highly scrutinised.


    If your wife does want to take it on then should she prioritise her mother over her aunt? I'd say yes.


    Why don't you get other people in to do laundry/cleaning?
    Those are not caring jobs simply laundry/cleaning.
    There are plenty of people willing to take in laundry especially if they can work for home, so plenty of school run mums.
    Last edited by lisyloo; 06-08-2018 at 3:48 PM.
    • Primrose
    • By Primrose 6th Aug 18, 6:33 PM
    • 8,223 Posts
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    Primrose
    Surely the right issue to complain yet gain to the people who run the sheltered home accommodation and to the official inspecting body for them whoever that is. Is it a council Care home? Yiu should be comp,ai 8ng to your local council officials and making a formal complaint to your local council collars if the staff are doing an inadequate job.

    But before complaining list the specifics of what is being adequately and try to get some collective feedback from other residents or their relatives as
    well. You will have a stronger case if you make a collective complaint. It certainly sounds as if supercisio. of care providers there is inadequate and this is what yiu need to be addressing.

    Sounds as if your wife had more than enough on her plate to cope with already without taking on an even bigger workload.
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 6th Aug 18, 11:37 PM
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    dawyldthing
    I'm wondering if there just scheduled for care but your expecting them to do the lot. Have a look in the care plan, it will identify what the carers are actually there to do. If there there for half hour calls they prob literally can't fit it all in, which is what I suspect when you say you would only work 10 hours a week.

    Care providers charge so much as they have to pay national insurance, insurance, training and the like. I will say it's really tough caring for a family member. I cared for nan for over 5 years, progressively getting worse. Used to have a day off work for appointments through to doing everything towards the end. It's tiring, very rewarding but it is hard work (and this was nan living here, not popping up to somewhere all the time).
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    • GlasweJen
    • By GlasweJen 7th Aug 18, 8:03 AM
    • 6,598 Posts
    • 11,907 Thanks
    GlasweJen
    My Mother in Law suffers from dementia and lives in sheltered accommodation. She pays all her rent, care costs, etc.

    My wife is getting upset because the carers are not very good carers. They don't launder properly, don't clean the flat properly etc. We feel that it would be better if my wife did certain things like the above and say helped her have a shower things would be better. We would still leave a lot of things like taking her to and from meals in the resident lounge/dining room to the carers.
    Now, if my wife did this she would have to give up her part time job and that is not economically viable. So the thought is that if she took £500 per month to compensate for her loss of salary AND payment for providing care would this cause problems in the future when the time comes for her to enter a care home. That is, would the Local Authority try to claw back the payments my wife would receive?
    Originally posted by Norma Norman
    You need to check the carers contracts as up here I can't find a care company who will empty a washing machine. They can load one and turn it on but emptying and hanging a washing isn't considered "care".

    Same goes for cleaning, they will clean a work surface to make sure it's sanitary before using it to prepare food and then wipe it down again after use but they won't clean a whole kitchen. They will do a light dust but won't hoover.

    Carers provide care, they aren't cleaners. It sounds like your mother in law doesn't need replacement help she needs supplementary help. Personal carers to deal with personal care (bathing, washing, meals, medications), cleaners to deal with the house (hoovering, dusting, mopping), family to change beds (cleaners won't do this), a laundry service to deal with laundry if the cleaner won't do it (some will, some won't).

    You might be able to employ a "personal assistant" and there may even be funding called direct payments from social services (means tested - strict rules on using family) and PAs have a more broad range of tasks that they'll do so they might pick up all the tasks that the carers can't do (or possibly just don't have time to do).

    Some care companies are just hopeless, if there are problems with the actual care you need to complain in writing, tell them how you want them to improve and when you want a written response but with the above I'd expect them to say "the company cannot reasonably clean a house, shower and give Mrs X her medicine then take her to the dining room in the allotted hour and as we are a care company we have to prioritise medication, hygiene and nutrition above cleaning".

    As for using your position as POA to access money to pay yourself as a carer, are you a carer? Do you have an NVQ in care of the elderly? Manual handling certification? Medicine dispensing certification? Insurance? Delirium training? Do you know how to handle the tax and national insurance of being a self employed carer? Are you getting insurance?
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    • troubleinparadise
    • By troubleinparadise 7th Aug 18, 8:36 AM
    • 1,032 Posts
    • 1,743 Thanks
    troubleinparadise
    My Mother in Law suffers from dementia and lives in sheltered accommodation. She pays all her rent, care costs, etc.

    My wife is getting upset because the carers are not very good carers. They don't launder properly, don't clean the flat properly etc. We feel that it would be better if my wife did certain things like the above and say helped her have a shower things would be better. We would still leave a lot of things like taking her to and from meals in the resident lounge/dining room to the carers.
    Now, if my wife did this she would have to give up her part time job and that is not economically viable. So the thought is that if she took £500 per month to compensate for her loss of salary AND payment for providing care would this cause problems in the future when the time comes for her to enter a care home. That is, would the Local Authority try to claw back the payments my wife would receive?
    Originally posted by Norma Norman
    The LA wont try to claw back the amount in payments, they just wont fund any care, whether at home or residential, if they feel that MILs funds have been inappropriately taken/given, leaving it up to MIL or family to fund or provide the care. So pretty much where you are now.

    As has been said, go back to the care providers to see if things can be improved.

    This is a difficult situation, and a bit of a minefield when it comes to finances etc.

    The Alzheimers Society website and its forum Talking Point has lots of help and support for people living with dementia - your best source of information from those who are going through the same experiences as you:

    https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/
    Last edited by troubleinparadise; 07-08-2018 at 8:40 AM.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 7th Aug 18, 9:34 AM
    • 22,284 Posts
    • 10,912 Thanks
    lisyloo
    family to change beds (cleaners won't do this)

    Our lady that did the laundry (£20) also did a bed change (£10 including laundering).
    So you can find people to do this.


    We are a caring family and there are a few of us but we all have jobs, babies and don't all live nearby.
    We found it hard work with 6 of us doing money, benefits, food, DIY, hearing aid batteries, fixing broken jewelry, spectacles, dealing with nurses/doctors, carers, property maintenance not to mention entertainment.


    My neice did cleaning at one point but was paid the same as the previous cleaner so we didn't have an issue with that as she did a certain amount of jobs that a cleaner wouldn't have done (like putting on a morphine patch).
  • archived user
    How much does her Aunt pay her?
    • sheramber
    • By sheramber 7th Aug 18, 6:53 PM
    • 5,005 Posts
    • 3,731 Thanks
    sheramber
    iIf your MIL is in assisted living she will already be paying for the carer services.

    There is a link on this page to the Car Quality Commission who inspect these facilities.

    https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/housing-options/assisted-living-and-extra-care-housing/

    The Care Quality Commission oversee these facilities.

    You could complain to them if your MIL is not getting the correct level of care.

    Sheltered Housing is not regulated but carers are not provided to sheltered housing tenants.
    • calleyw
    • By calleyw 7th Aug 18, 7:26 PM
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    • 15,866 Thanks
    calleyw
    family to change beds (cleaners won't do this)
    Originally posted by GlasweJen

    I must have imagined my friends cleaner doing that as well as putting the wet washing on a rack!!!!!


    Yours


    Calley x
    Hope for everything and expect nothing!!!

    Good enough is almost always good enough -Prof Barry Schwartz

    If it scares you, it might be a good thing to try -Seth Godin
    • GlasweJen
    • By GlasweJen 7th Aug 18, 8:33 PM
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    GlasweJen
    I must have imagined my friends cleaner doing that as well as putting the wet washing on a rack!!!!!


    Yours


    Calley x
    Originally posted by calleyw
    A cleaner might hang washing but a carer wont, they're paid to provide care. They're quite often only in the house for half an hour to an hour so if they're there to put a wash on they won't be to unload it.

    My PA will but she's independent, the councils carers (big company called cordia) won't hang a washing - their staff won't lift a washing basket full of wet washing as it's too heavy according to their moving and handling policy. To move me they used a hoist attached to the ceiling, if the hoist wasn't working then I had to pay to hire one from an external company.
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    • kingfisherblue
    • By kingfisherblue 7th Aug 18, 9:40 PM
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    kingfisherblue
    To be fair, an elderly friend and neighbour has carers a few times a day. I also pop in. If I put the washer on, a carer hangs it out. If they have put the washer on and I'm the next person to go in, I'll put it out. Ditto bringing it in. The carers don't clean though - either family do it, or they pay someone.


    I do little extras such as picking up hearing aid batteries, birthday cards, etc. My friend doesn't want to ask her daughter to choose her own birthday card, hence the reason that I do it. I fit things such as this into my existing caring responsibilities.


    OP, most carers receive minimum wage or just above. My daughter (a careworker) is paid £8.85 an hour, which is a very good rate of pay for her job. Most firms near me only pay around £8-£8.20 for team leaders, who have greater responsibilities. £12.50 an hour, even if it is legal for your wife to pay herself when she has PoA (and I'm not sure that it is), is just plain greed.



    According to this article (admittedly last year, so figures may be different), a newly qualified nurse earns £11.32 an hour. I don't know how you can even begin to justify your wife earning so much more.

    https://nursingnotes.co.uk/how-much-do-nurses-get-paid/
    • calleyw
    • By calleyw 7th Aug 18, 10:25 PM
    • 8,790 Posts
    • 15,866 Thanks
    calleyw
    A cleaner might hang washing but a carer wont, they're paid to provide care. They're quite often only in the house for half an hour to an hour so if they're there to put a wash on they won't be to unload it.
    Originally posted by GlasweJen
    I never said anything about carers you where the one who said that cleaners don't change beds and don't hang out/up washing!!!!


    "family to change beds (cleaners won't do this), a laundry service to deal with laundry if the cleaner won't do it (some will, some won't)"


    And I replied saying my friends cleaner did!!!!


    Get it right before you start telling me what carers do. I am well aware of what they do and don't do thank you very much!!!!


    Yours


    Calley X
    Hope for everything and expect nothing!!!

    Good enough is almost always good enough -Prof Barry Schwartz

    If it scares you, it might be a good thing to try -Seth Godin
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 8th Aug 18, 9:09 AM
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    Red-Squirrel
    So approx. £12.50 an hour, to care for your own mum.


    Nice work if you can get it...
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Sorry no, itís not Ďnice workí. Iím sure the daughter would prefer her mum was well and didnít need any care.
    • hb2
    • By hb2 8th Aug 18, 9:52 AM
    • 70 Posts
    • 65 Thanks
    hb2
    I'm glad to see that someone has already suggested the 'Talking Point' forum for the Alzheimer's Society. The OP will get great advice there from people who have been through similar situations.
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