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    • Mrs pbradley936
    • By Mrs pbradley936 6th Aug 18, 10:55 AM
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    Mrs pbradley936
    The "rape" of the National Insurance Fund
    • #1
    • 6th Aug 18, 10:55 AM
    The "rape" of the National Insurance Fund 6th Aug 18 at 10:55 AM
    I came across this little gem which a a draft prepared for the National Pensioners Convention:

    http://www.singernet.info/southwarktv/spag/spagNIFund.asp

    an wondered if it is a) true & b) if it has any great impact on the way pensions are costed.
    Last edited by Mrs pbradley936; 06-08-2018 at 2:35 PM.
Page 1
    • kidmugsy
    • By kidmugsy 6th Aug 18, 11:57 AM
    • 12,175 Posts
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    kidmugsy
    • #2
    • 6th Aug 18, 11:57 AM
    • #2
    • 6th Aug 18, 11:57 AM
    wondered if it is a) true & b) if it has any great impact on the way pensions are costed.
    Originally posted by Mrs pbradley936
    Looks like rubbish to me. But then I stopped at "The suggestion that the Fund exists only on paper and is not available for spending is unfounded. The money is invested in gilt-edged securities."

    Since gilt-edged securities are issued by HM Treasury you can see that the existence of this fund is just flim-flam. It was the socialist cabinet minister Nye Bevan who said that "The secret of the National Insurance Fund is that there ain't no fund". That man was right about very little but he was right about that. If you want to see what a genuine government-owned fund looks like read up on the Norwegian "Government Pension Fund Global".
    Free the dunston one next time too.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 6th Aug 18, 12:27 PM
    • 96,058 Posts
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    dunstonh
    • #3
    • 6th Aug 18, 12:27 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Aug 18, 12:27 PM
    But then I stopped at "The suggestion that the Fund exists only on paper and is not available for spending is unfounded. The money is invested in gilt-edged securities."
    you did better than me. I stopped straight away when I saw the tiny text, poor reading font on a blue background.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
    • nrsql
    • By nrsql 6th Aug 18, 1:00 PM
    • 1,829 Posts
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    nrsql
    • #4
    • 6th Aug 18, 1:00 PM
    • #4
    • 6th Aug 18, 1:00 PM
    I was cautious after the subject
    >> What difference does this make?

    Then when I saw it was just a link I assumed malware or at best clickbait.
    Surprised others seem to have followed it.
    • Mrs pbradley936
    • By Mrs pbradley936 6th Aug 18, 2:28 PM
    • 12,935 Posts
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    Mrs pbradley936
    • #5
    • 6th Aug 18, 2:28 PM
    • #5
    • 6th Aug 18, 2:28 PM
    I was cautious after the subject
    >> What difference does this make?

    Then when I saw it was just a link I assumed malware or at best clickbait.
    Surprised others seem to have followed it.
    Originally posted by nrsql
    Don't you look to see if a person putting up a link has a pedigree on here before jumping to conclusions?
    • Mrs pbradley936
    • By Mrs pbradley936 6th Aug 18, 2:38 PM
    • 12,935 Posts
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    Mrs pbradley936
    • #6
    • 6th Aug 18, 2:38 PM
    • #6
    • 6th Aug 18, 2:38 PM
    Looks like rubbish to me. But then I stopped at "The suggestion that the Fund exists only on paper and is not available for spending is unfounded. The money is invested in gilt-edged securities."

    Since gilt-edged securities are issued by HM Treasury you can see that the existence of this fund is just flim-flam. It was the socialist cabinet minister Nye Bevan who said that "The secret of the National Insurance Fund is that there ain't no fund". That man was right about very little but he was right about that. If you want to see what a genuine government-owned fund looks like read up on the Norwegian "Government Pension Fund Global".
    Originally posted by kidmugsy
    Well I just did a Google and it seems we do indeed have a fund and it publishes accounts: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-insurance-fund-accounts
    • kidmugsy
    • By kidmugsy 6th Aug 18, 2:58 PM
    • 12,175 Posts
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    kidmugsy
    • #7
    • 6th Aug 18, 2:58 PM
    • #7
    • 6th Aug 18, 2:58 PM
    Well I just did a Google and it seems we do indeed have a fund and it publishes accounts: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-insurance-fund-accounts
    Originally posted by Mrs pbradley936
    You miss the point. It's a fiction - how can you possibly believe that there's a fund there when it's "invested" in HMG's paper? It's not a thing, it's a vacuous accounting convention. I repeat - look up the Norwegian fund. It's real.
    Free the dunston one next time too.
    • Linton
    • By Linton 6th Aug 18, 3:01 PM
    • 10,051 Posts
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    Linton
    • #8
    • 6th Aug 18, 3:01 PM
    • #8
    • 6th Aug 18, 3:01 PM
    Well I just did a Google and it seems we do indeed have a fund and it publishes accounts: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-insurance-fund-accounts
    Originally posted by Mrs pbradley936

    It is a notional fund - there are no actual assets of £21Bn held for example in bags of gold in some goverment vault. It is simply a way of accounting that highlights important aspects of the cash flow from contributors to recipients.
    • Aberdeenangarse
    • By Aberdeenangarse 6th Aug 18, 3:04 PM
    • 952 Posts
    • 2,452 Thanks
    Aberdeenangarse
    • #9
    • 6th Aug 18, 3:04 PM
    • #9
    • 6th Aug 18, 3:04 PM
    Well I just did a Google and it seems we do indeed have a fund and it publishes accounts: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-insurance-fund-accounts
    Originally posted by Mrs pbradley936
    Not a fund, more like a ‘current account’ what’s paid in is then paid out, with a vast majority of it going to fund State Pensions. It usually has to be ‘topped up’ by the Treasury.


    https://www.moneymarketing.co.uk/issues/29-june-2017/paul-lewis-scrap-national-insurance-contributions/
    You can't polish a turd, but you can put sprinkles on it!
    • Aberdeenangarse
    • By Aberdeenangarse 6th Aug 18, 3:07 PM
    • 952 Posts
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    Aberdeenangarse
    You miss the point. It's a fiction - how can you possibly believe that there's a fund there when it's "invested" in HMG's paper? It's not a thing, it's a vacuous accounting convention. I repeat - look up the Norwegian fund. It's real.
    Originally posted by kidmugsy
    Indeed, a bit like my beer fund. A fictional amount set aside for me to spend in the Pub which is usually not enough.
    You can't polish a turd, but you can put sprinkles on it!
    • Andy L
    • By Andy L 6th Aug 18, 5:23 PM
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    Andy L
    Its about 15 years old and one of its points is that breaking the link between pensions and wages but only increasing them by inflation has increased the surplus.
    Since we've had the triple-lock, reversing that policy, for 8 years I suspect its assumptions & numbers are well out of date
    • JezR
    • By JezR 6th Aug 18, 7:38 PM
    • 1,554 Posts
    • 1,102 Thanks
    JezR
    There are a number of historical points of detail that are overlooked in this piece; for example the reduction of the Treasury Supplement in 1981 was offset by an increase in employees' NI. There was also a reduction of some of the insured benefits, such as earnings-related unemployment benefit.
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