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    • spin0000
    • By spin0000 4th Aug 18, 12:14 PM
    • 9Posts
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    spin0000
    CPM fine for parking a 'commercial vehicle' outside my house
    • #1
    • 4th Aug 18, 12:14 PM
    CPM fine for parking a 'commercial vehicle' outside my house 4th Aug 18 at 12:14 PM
    Hi
    I have read the newbies guide, perhaps too late though?
    12 days ago, I received a fine of 100 from CPM for parking a 'commercial vehicle' outside my own house after 7 pm , even though my parking permit was prominently displayed. It was a rented transit van from Enterprise that had no sign on it (it was a new, plain grey standard sized Transit). I used the van as a one-off to transport a large sofa to my house, and had no option but to park it outside overnight as I was returning the van the next day. I was completely unaware about the line on the estate sign that says 'no commercials between 7pm and 7 am' . I asked Which Legal for advice, and they said to appeal saying that it is not a commercial vehicle, but a generic rental vehicle and stating the reasons I was using as above. I placed the appeal last week. Today, I noticed that I have received no confirmation email that I am supposed to when making the appeal, so I resent it again via the website. Again, I had no email.

    So, have I made a mistake here? Or what are my options? Thank you for any advice.
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 4th Aug 18, 12:34 PM
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    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 4th Aug 18, 12:34 PM
    • #2
    • 4th Aug 18, 12:34 PM
    what are my options
    Wait for court proceedings to be issued, defend well (with help from the forum) and let a Judge decide this.

    The NEWBIES FAQ sticky, posts #1 and #3 tells you that no appeal to an IPC Operator has any chance of success.

    UKCPM are litigious, so wait to see what turns up in the post.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 4th Aug 18, 1:24 PM
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    Half_way
    • #3
    • 4th Aug 18, 1:24 PM
    • #3
    • 4th Aug 18, 1:24 PM
    You have not received a fine, but of more importance: why are you displaying a permit to park?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • spin0000
    • By spin0000 5th Aug 18, 7:14 AM
    • 9 Posts
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    spin0000
    • #4
    • 5th Aug 18, 7:14 AM
    • #4
    • 5th Aug 18, 7:14 AM
    Thank you for your responses.
    To clarify, I displayed my own parking permit for my own numbered bay, in which I was parked, in the windscreen of the rented van.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 5th Aug 18, 7:22 AM
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    The Slithy Tove
    • #5
    • 5th Aug 18, 7:22 AM
    • #5
    • 5th Aug 18, 7:22 AM
    Do you rent or own the property?

    Is the parking space part of the property, or just a space on the "common areas"?

    What does your deeds/lease/AST say about parking?

    Signs put up by some privater company cannot overrule what your contract for the property says.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 5th Aug 18, 8:14 AM
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    The Deep
    • #6
    • 5th Aug 18, 8:14 AM
    • #6
    • 5th Aug 18, 8:14 AM
    In my opinion, a commercial vehicle is one used for commerce. Moving is sofa from A to B is not commerce.

    Are you a tenant or a leaseholder? What does your lease/AST say about parking? The lease trumps any signs erected by PPCs.

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the House of Commons recently

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41 recently.

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 5th Aug 18, 9:47 AM
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    Half_way
    • #7
    • 5th Aug 18, 9:47 AM
    • #7
    • 5th Aug 18, 9:47 AM
    Do you rent or own the property?

    Is the parking space part of the property, or just a space on the "common areas"?

    What does your deeds/lease/AST say about parking?

    Signs put up by some privater company cannot overrule what your contract for the property says.
    Originally posted by The Slithy Tove

    As above whyare you displaying a permit to park in your space?
    It's as ridiculous as having a permit to use your own lavatory
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 5th Aug 18, 10:07 AM
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    NeilCr
    • #8
    • 5th Aug 18, 10:07 AM
    • #8
    • 5th Aug 18, 10:07 AM
    Do you rent or own the property?

    Is the parking space part of the property, or just a space on the "common areas"?

    What does your deeds/lease/AST say about parking?

    Signs put up by some privater company cannot overrule what your contract for the property says.
    Originally posted by The Slithy Tove
    This.

    Plus is there anything in the lease about commercial vehicles? New build estates often have covenants about them. Ours actually "bans" them completely.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 5th Aug 18, 10:28 AM
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    The Deep
    • #9
    • 5th Aug 18, 10:28 AM
    • #9
    • 5th Aug 18, 10:28 AM
    But what is a commercial vehicle? Is it a fiesta van? Is it a four cab? is it a camper van, what about an Estate Agent's Beamer?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 5th Aug 18, 10:40 AM
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    NeilCr
    But what is a commercial vehicle? Is it a fiesta van? Is it a four cab? is it a camper van, what about an Estate Agent's Beamer?
    Originally posted by The Deep
    I don't usually use wiki but see no reason for them to have this wrong

    EU (love em or hate em) rule

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_vehicle

    It's been suggested on our estate that a commercial vehicle must have a logo on!
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 5th Aug 18, 11:01 AM
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    Fruitcake
    The UK Government DfT Vehicle Certification Agency does not define any type of vehicle as "commercial", even if it is designed specifically for the carriage of goods instead of passengers.


    The Cambridge online dictionary defines a commercial veihicle as one being used by a business.

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/commercial-vehicle
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
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    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 5th Aug 18, 1:30 PM
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    The Deep
    So the OPs vehicle can hardly be described as a commercial vehicle. The PPC may have therefore obtained the details from the DVLA without due cause, an offence under the DPA.

    Worth a complaint imo, kerching!
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • peter_the_piper
    • By peter_the_piper 5th Aug 18, 2:30 PM
    • 26,497 Posts
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    peter_the_piper
    But what is a commercial vehicle? Is it a fiesta van? Is it a four cab? is it a camper van, what about an Estate Agent's Beamer?
    Originally posted by The Deep
    Indeed, my Picanto saloon has business insurance for deliveries
    I'd rather be an Optimist and be proved wrong than a Pessimist and be proved right.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 5th Aug 18, 2:46 PM
    • 2,450 Posts
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    NeilCr
    The UK Government DfT Vehicle Certification Agency does not define any type of vehicle as "commercial", even if it is designed specifically for the carriage of goods instead of passengers.


    The Cambridge online dictionary defines a commercial veihicle as one being used by a business.

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/commercial-vehicle
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    And the Collins dictionary defines it thus

    https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/commercial-vehicle

    We can probably play definition ping pong for ages!

    Practically, from a director's point of view, our covenant is aimed at large vans. As ever with these covenants they are designed to keep the estate "clean" for the developer to sell properties. I do know that a number of our residents have complained about large vans on the estate.

    Still don't know, though, if there is such a covenant in the OP's lease.
    • spin0000
    • By spin0000 6th Aug 18, 9:50 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    spin0000
    Thanks again for the replies.

    I own the house

    The PPC have not made contact with the DVLA...they just saw an (unmarked, new, normal sized) Ford Trasit and assumed that it is a commercial vehicle, and placed a ticket on the windscreen

    My appeal to CPM stated:
    I dispute this penalty as I would not consider the vehicle in question to be a commercial vehicle - it has no sign writing and is not used for commercial purposes or business. If you check the registration, and the documentation I have attached, you will see that it is a generic rented vehicle that I used to move a large 4-seater sofa from London to my house. I then had to leave the vehicle securely parked overnight before returning it to the rental company in London the next morning, so clearly had no option but to park it there.
    And, I've just looked at the covenant; it states:
    Rights granted for the benefit of the property....
    [...]
    the right subject always to estate regulations to use the allocated parking space for the purpose of parking private motor vehicles not exceeding three tonnes gross laden weight.....etc....
    Finally, I noticed that the 'commercial vehicles' line on the parking sign is a stuck on addition to the original sign


    What worries me right now is that I got no email confirmation that the appeal has been received, so my guess is that they'll deny all knowledge and just assume I am defaulting after 28 days
    Last edited by spin0000; 06-08-2018 at 9:56 AM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Aug 18, 10:02 AM
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    Umkomaas
    What worries me right now is that I got no email confirmation that the appeal has been received, so my guess is that they'll deny all knowledge and just assume I am defaulting after 28 days
    They're not going to accept your appeal whatever you've written in it. I'm afraid the system doesn't work like that. With an IPC Operator it's ride out the storm and see if they issue court proceedings (they have 6 years in which to do so), which you will need to fully defend. There's no quick answer, I'm sorry.

    Complain to your MP as it's a very opportune time with the passage of the Sir Greg Knight Bill through its Parliamentary stages.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 6th Aug 18, 10:46 AM
    • 4,114 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    As you will have noticed, from reading other threeads, almost no PPC EVER accepts a first appeal.
    Just keep your own confirmation you have sent it, and see what they come back with

    assuming you lease a specific space and this space is listed in your lease, then get onto the management company and tell them to FRO with this private company trespassing on YOUR SPACE
    You withdraw their implied right of access
    You will see issuing of ANY further notices as prima facie evidence of trespass (to land and goods) and will instruct an injunciton against them, plus damages for breahc of lease and trespass. This wll be against them, and their agent who they remain fully liable for the actions of

    Your management co cnat sell your space to another company
    they cant tell you to use permits, as it isnt in your lease (check for "regulations" but you will find that they can only be introduced for the beenfit of... and this i sclearly not a benefit)
    they cant remove your rights to use your space and tlel you you must contract with a nother company in order to park
    they cant force you to pay anything other than the charges listed in the lease, and this charge certainly isnt that

    Get onthe offensicve. This company DOES SUE PEOPLE so you MUST puyt them on the back foot by getting the management company to panic.
    • onomatopoeia99
    • By onomatopoeia99 6th Aug 18, 10:50 AM
    • 4,970 Posts
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    onomatopoeia99
    And, I've just looked at the covenant; it states:
    Rights granted for the benefit of the property....
    [...]
    the right subject always to estate regulations to use the allocated parking space for the purpose of parking private motor vehicles not exceeding three tonnes gross laden weight.....etc....
    Originally posted by spin0000

    Just a FYI, some Transits are under 3 tonnes gross and some are not. Mine is 3300kg, for example.
    INTP, nerd, libertarian and scifi geek.
    Home is where my books are.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 6th Aug 18, 12:41 PM
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    NeilCr
    Do the residents own the freehold of your estate?

    If so, there will likely be a Management Company with resident directors. If they are in the contract with the PPC they may be able to cancel the ticket. Think the covenants muddy the water a bit here. Having said that they are designed to stop long term misuse not situations like yours which do happen.

    If you approached me as a director with that story I'd cancel (if I had the authority) the ticket.
    • spin0000
    • By spin0000 6th Aug 18, 3:01 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    spin0000
    thanks Neil, that's worth a try
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