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  • FIRST POST
    • JeffBezos
    • By JeffBezos 3rd Aug 18, 6:05 PM
    • 5Posts
    • 0Thanks
    JeffBezos
    Waiting PCN private area help needed on popla appeal
    • #1
    • 3rd Aug 18, 6:05 PM
    Waiting PCN private area help needed on popla appeal 3rd Aug 18 at 6:05 PM
    Hi all,

    Are there any cases with PCN issued by Park Watch for waiting in a 'loading yard space/road' for less than 5 mins that have won - at POPLA?

    If anyone has advice about WAITING on private land - NOT a car park, that has 'forbidding signage'

    PLEASE HELP - (previous replies left below - but specific help would be really useful)

    Thanks all.

    (and yes, I am the worlds richest man - Jeff Bezos)
    Last edited by JeffBezos; 12-08-2018 at 1:27 PM.
Page 1
    • waamo
    • By waamo 3rd Aug 18, 6:16 PM
    • 3,865 Posts
    • 5,021 Thanks
    waamo
    • #2
    • 3rd Aug 18, 6:16 PM
    • #2
    • 3rd Aug 18, 6:16 PM
    Use all appeal points except disproportionate charge. That's dead in the water.

    If you were only 3mins why not throw in grace periods? The code of practice state 10mins grace period should be given.
    This space for hire.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Aug 18, 6:23 PM
    • 18,795 Posts
    • 23,760 Thanks
    Redx
    • #3
    • 3rd Aug 18, 6:23 PM
    • #3
    • 3rd Aug 18, 6:23 PM
    any and all BPA CoP failures should be in there, including grace period clause #13


    also


    NO LANDOWNER AUTHORITY
    POOR AND INADEQUATE SIGNAGE
    NOT THE SAME AS BEAVIS
    ANPR COMPLIANCE


    etc


    but not the disprportionate charge as that died with the BEAVIS case 2 years ago
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Aug 18, 7:18 PM
    • 18,795 Posts
    • 23,760 Thanks
    Redx
    • #4
    • 3rd Aug 18, 7:18 PM
    • #4
    • 3rd Aug 18, 7:18 PM
    check the clause about the period where reading the signs and then deciding to leave and not choosing to "park"


    13 Grace periods
    13.1 If a driver is parking without your permission, or at locations where parking is not normally permitted they must have the chance to read the terms and conditions before they enter into the "parking contract" with you. If, having had that opportunity, they decide not to park but choose to leave the car park, you must provide them with a reasonable grace period to leave, as they will not be bound by your parking contract.
    in your case its not about a "waiting time" , its about a grace period of say up to 10 minutes to read the signs each and every time and choose to park or to leave , in your case to leave because it says "no waiting"


    3 minutes doesnt even come close
    Last edited by Redx; 03-08-2018 at 7:22 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Aug 18, 7:25 PM
    • 18,795 Posts
    • 23,760 Thanks
    Redx
    • #5
    • 3rd Aug 18, 7:25 PM
    • #5
    • 3rd Aug 18, 7:25 PM
    yes, but edit out personal details , VRM number plate and the popla code , just post the proposed draft , assume that the time to read the signs and depart from the "forbidden area" is up to 10 minutes (ie:- everybody would take 3 or more minutes)

    also note that they cannot offer a parking contract where parking is forbidden (forbidding signage), so at worst its trespass and only the landowner can issue a court case for trespass
    Last edited by Redx; 03-08-2018 at 7:29 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 4th Aug 18, 5:57 PM
    • 8,558 Posts
    • 8,409 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #6
    • 4th Aug 18, 5:57 PM
    • #6
    • 4th Aug 18, 5:57 PM
    Does the PPC already know the identity of the driver?

    If not, why are you not exploiting that?

    And forget this one:
    The charge is disproportionate and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss.
    Hasn't worked for nearly three years.
    Last edited by KeithP; 04-08-2018 at 6:00 PM.
    .
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 4th Aug 18, 6:35 PM
    • 8,558 Posts
    • 8,409 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #7
    • 4th Aug 18, 6:35 PM
    • #7
    • 4th Aug 18, 6:35 PM
    ParkWatch know who I am - I admitted being there in my original appeal...
    Originally posted by JeffBezos
    Admitted being there or admitted being the driver?
    How many seats in your vehicle?
    Could you have been a passenger?

    Careful how you answer that on a public forum.
    .
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 4th Aug 18, 7:40 PM
    • 37,170 Posts
    • 83,863 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #8
    • 4th Aug 18, 7:40 PM
    • #8
    • 4th Aug 18, 7:40 PM
    The signage point is far too short. Use the very long one from port 3 of the NEWBIES, but embed photos when you submit it instead of using links.
    Get your own photos of the signs to emphasise your points.

    You need to number your headings and the corresponding appeal sections.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 04-08-2018 at 7:42 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 4th Aug 18, 10:46 PM
    • 8,558 Posts
    • 8,409 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #9
    • 4th Aug 18, 10:46 PM
    • #9
    • 4th Aug 18, 10:46 PM
    I need real help here.
    Originally posted by JeffBezos
    When writing a PoPLA appeal a good place to start is post #3 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.

    In there you will see several already written, near template appeals.

    For signage, look in that post for the line:
    Signage (I deliberately go to town in this section, don't cut it down!):
    Immediately following that is a link - click on it to find a comprehensive already written PoPLA appeal point.

    Any answers to my earlier questions?
    .
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 5th Aug 18, 12:13 PM
    • 18,839 Posts
    • 29,619 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    (I supply a brief account of what happened and why I was waiting in the area for background)
    Is that wise?
    Unwise - only state that your vehicle entered the area, stopped to read signs, saw prohibition, drove off - all within 3 minutes.

    Then you go into detailed argument about the 3 minutes being well within the BPA Code of Practice guidelines on Grace Periods. Then go to town on the amount of detail contained in the signs, that even 3 minutes were insufficient to take in all the minutiae, but having spotted the main thrust of the signage, the vehicle was removed immediately - exactly the purpose for which the BPA Grace Period was introduced. State that 10 minutes is the statutory Grace Period for council parking tickets.

    You need to make Grace Period you principal argument and should be your first appeal point.

    Then follow with signage being prohibitive in nature, no parking contract offered, therefore Park Watch are seeking to penalise you, something no private company in law can impose. At worst you were a trespasser, and only the landowner can pursue you for trespass - as was confirmed by the Judges at the Supreme Court case of ParkingEye v Beavis.

    Follow on then with No Landowner Authority, ANPR deficiencies and any other appeal points from the sticky. Load them up, make it a mountain for PW to climb, because the more you put in there, the more work they have to do in contesting your inputs. They may decide you're too slippery for them and give up.

    I've admitted to being the driver in my first stage appeal.

    should i NOT admit to being the driver in my popla appeal?
    I'd like to read exactly what you said before making any comment.

    Also might be important is that my car is leased they sent original ticket to the registered keeper (the company we lease it from) who then charged us 12 admin charge to inform PW of my details. Is this useful and how?
    Could have been vitally important, but depends what's been said to PW (above). A real get-out-of-jail opportunity possibly chucked away.

    I'll have another look at those appeals, but I don't think I can just copy all of that as it's not relevant to my case is it?
    Relevant or not, PW have to respond to it. At POPLA you only need to win on one single appeal point to get this cancelled. PW on the other hand have to win against every single appeal point for POPLA to side with them.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 5th Aug 18, 12:52 PM
    • 18,839 Posts
    • 29,619 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    is there a way where i can send you what i wrote to PW in my first appeal without it being posted here. It will be obvious if any nefarious visitors are monitoring this forum?
    Sorry, I only work on-forum.

    Post it up here as it gives other regulars the opportunity to comment or add advice.

    I wouldn't worry that MI5 PW are looking in - they will already have seen your initial appeal and will get your POPLA appeal soon enough.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 05-08-2018 at 12:55 PM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 5th Aug 18, 1:51 PM
    • 18,839 Posts
    • 29,619 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I suppose it could be used as an example of what NOT to do...
    Hmmm. I don't think even Delia Smith could cook a goose that well.

    You're going to have to pen your POPLA appeal well away from any of those circumstances, concentrating on the prohibitive nature of the signage - do you have your own detailed (legible small print) photos of the signage? If not, please get some, but park somewhere much safer!

    Load as much into the appeal as you can muster and hope PW find it too much to deal with.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Aug 18, 12:46 PM
    • 8,558 Posts
    • 8,409 Thanks
    KeithP
    - how long do I get to submit the appeal??!!
    Originally posted by JeffBezos
    The letter that supplied your PoPLA code tells you that.

    Usually it says 28 days, but don't leave it later than thirty days.
    .
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Aug 18, 1:48 PM
    • 8,558 Posts
    • 8,409 Thanks
    KeithP
    How can it be read without exposing it to possible cowboys out there?
    Originally posted by JeffBezos
    It can't.

    It doesn't matter if it is totally anonymous.

    Stick it in a dropbox file and post a link.

    Why are you deleting random posts... like the one I replied to in post #24?
    Last edited by KeithP; 08-08-2018 at 1:51 PM.
    .
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Aug 18, 10:00 PM
    • 8,558 Posts
    • 8,409 Thanks
    KeithP
    Then if you won't make it anonymous then don't post it.

    Your choice - get the benefit of peer review or not.
    .
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 10th Aug 18, 9:26 PM
    • 18,839 Posts
    • 29,619 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    At over 6,200 words and 18 pages long, it has the potential to dissuade a PPC from trying to produce evidence to deal with it. There again, they may just shove a similar copy and paste template back, but stretching to 40+ pages long. And sometimes they win. POPLA is becoming far less predictable these days, where in the past we could say, yep, that will win, more recently it has become much closer to a 'lap of the Gods' scenario.

    Have you drowned the critical point(s) in the mass of copy and paste verbiage? Here's a salutary lesson from betman's 29-page losing POPLA appeal (reported just today), where at least one critical point seems to have been lost in the crap, and the case failing in the process. And that was a Park Watch case too. Learn something from it.

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5852303&page=3

    Most regulars (and you can count the number prepared to fully evaluate POPLA appeals on the fingers of one hand) are pretty much brain-dead from the expectation that three or four times a day, almost every day, for the past 5 years we are being expected to plough through university-sized theses, looking to spot errors of copying and pasting or out of date arguments which make the poster more, rather than less, vulnerable to an unfavourable adjudication.

    If you're happy with it, go with it. There are sufficient examples of what wins and what loses littered through the stickies and the general threads.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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