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  • FIRST POST
    • silverchoice
    • By silverchoice 2nd Aug 18, 10:18 AM
    • 76Posts
    • 7Thanks
    silverchoice
    Is this letter a Letter Before Claim ?
    • #1
    • 2nd Aug 18, 10:18 AM
    Is this letter a Letter Before Claim ? 2nd Aug 18 at 10:18 AM
    I parked for too long in a NCP car park in April then got letters from NCP and Trace Debt Recovery all of which I ignored but yesterday I got two letters one from NCP and the other from BW Legal.



    Is the letter from BW legal a Letter Before Claim ?

    And how should I respond to these letters ?




Page 1
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 2nd Aug 18, 10:24 AM
    • 3,783 Posts
    • 6,224 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    • #2
    • 2nd Aug 18, 10:24 AM
    • #2
    • 2nd Aug 18, 10:24 AM
    Treat it as a Letter before Claim for the simple reason they have mentioned court.

    Send a SAR to NCP and ZZPS. Get proof of posting for all three letters. Come back when you have replies

    With regards to the SAR, follow up after 30 days and if they don't reply complain to the ICO

    See an example here

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5876564#5
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to RTFM - the Civil Procedure Rules
    2. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend- See #1
    3. Failing to RTFCL - the Court letters
    4. Template defences that say nothing - See #1
    5. Forgetting about the Witness Statement - See #3
    • silverchoice
    • By silverchoice 2nd Aug 18, 10:31 AM
    • 76 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    silverchoice
    • #3
    • 2nd Aug 18, 10:31 AM
    • #3
    • 2nd Aug 18, 10:31 AM
    What is SAR and ZZPS ?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 2nd Aug 18, 10:33 AM
    • 20,523 Posts
    • 32,440 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #4
    • 2nd Aug 18, 10:33 AM
    • #4
    • 2nd Aug 18, 10:33 AM
    SAR = Subject Access Request

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5849784

    ZZPS = debt collector company vulturing around the private parking sector, but I think in your case it's Trace Debt Recovery (same type of vulture!).
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 02-08-2018 at 10:35 AM.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • silverchoice
    • By silverchoice 3rd Aug 18, 3:14 PM
    • 76 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    silverchoice
    • #5
    • 3rd Aug 18, 3:14 PM
    • #5
    • 3rd Aug 18, 3:14 PM
    Treat it as a Letter before Claim for the simple reason they have mentioned court.

    Send a SAR to NCP and ZZPS. Get proof of posting for all three letters. Come back when you have replies

    With regards to the SAR, follow up after 30 days and if they don't reply complain to the ICO

    See an example here

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5876564#5
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu

    So I need to send letters to NCP, BW Legal and Trace Debt Recovery ?
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 3rd Aug 18, 3:30 PM
    • 10,963 Posts
    • 10,927 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #6
    • 3rd Aug 18, 3:30 PM
    • #6
    • 3rd Aug 18, 3:30 PM
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the House of Commons recently

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41 recently.

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 3rd Aug 18, 3:44 PM
    • 3,453 Posts
    • 5,063 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    • #7
    • 3rd Aug 18, 3:44 PM
    • #7
    • 3rd Aug 18, 3:44 PM
    I'd say it is not an LBC.

    They are saying that if you don't pay, they'll go back to their client to recommend making a claim - not the same thing. And they even say "upon being served with a Letter of Claim."
    • silverchoice
    • By silverchoice 3rd Aug 18, 3:53 PM
    • 76 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    silverchoice
    • #8
    • 3rd Aug 18, 3:53 PM
    • #8
    • 3rd Aug 18, 3:53 PM
    I'd say it is not an LBC.

    They are saying that if you don't pay, they'll go back to their client to recommend making a claim - not the same thing. And they even say "upon being served with a Letter of Claim."
    Originally posted by The Slithy Tove
    Should I reply to this letter or wait to see if I receive a Letter if Claim ?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 3rd Aug 18, 4:28 PM
    • 11,225 Posts
    • 11,790 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #9
    • 3rd Aug 18, 4:28 PM
    • #9
    • 3rd Aug 18, 4:28 PM
    Should I reply to this letter or wait to see if I receive a Letter if Claim ?
    Originally posted by silverchoice
    I would say ignore it, but clearly there are other opinions out there.
    .
    • silverchoice
    • By silverchoice 9th Aug 18, 4:54 PM
    • 76 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    silverchoice
    I've just received the letter of claim today so do I need to send letters to NCP, BW Legal and Trace Debt Recovery ?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 9th Aug 18, 4:59 PM
    • 37,988 Posts
    • 22,099 Thanks
    Quentin
    If this is a proper lbcca then respond to whoever sent it


    (Never contact a debt collector)


    How to respond to a lbcca is covered in the newbies faq #2
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 9th Aug 18, 5:01 PM
    • 1,183 Posts
    • 2,249 Thanks
    Johnersh
    Letter of Response goes to the sender.

    As a general rule (once you get to that stage) when dealing with the court proceedings, I'd recommend sending everything to the court AND the claimant's solicitor
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    • silverchoice
    • By silverchoice 19th Aug 18, 8:30 PM
    • 76 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    silverchoice
    Yesterday I received this response from BW legal ?
    What usually happens next ?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 19th Aug 18, 8:36 PM
    • 20,319 Posts
    • 25,691 Thanks
    Redx
    NCP are new to B W LEGAL so very few examples if any to go on , so wait and see what NCP tell them to do, as you may be the guinea pig on this


    ie:- we cannot tell you what we dont know
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th Aug 18, 10:21 PM
    • 20,523 Posts
    • 32,440 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Yesterday I received this response from BW legal ?
    What usually happens next ?
    They will contact you upon receipt of a response from their client.

    Did you not get that far down their letter?
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • silverchoice
    • By silverchoice 20th Aug 18, 7:13 AM
    • 76 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    silverchoice
    They will contact you upon receipt of a response from their client.

    Did you not get that far down their letter?
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Thatís what they say but what usually happens ?
    • LoveNorfolk
    • By LoveNorfolk 20th Aug 18, 10:15 AM
    • 188 Posts
    • 288 Thanks
    LoveNorfolk
    I've had this exact same letter (but from Excel), I was back and forth with BW for around a year and a bit, reported them to the CSA and SRA and we're back to beginning again with this letter from Excel.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 20th Aug 18, 10:52 AM
    • 4,114 Posts
    • 4,987 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    What, exactly, did you send them?
    If you asked for a set of documents then the deadline to send them is still "live" - 30 days from when they received your letter.

    So you could respond and remind them of this deadline, and that if they fail to respond according toe hPAP you will report them to the SRA for professsional misconduct. It shoudl be trivial for them to send the documents you requested, as they must have had sight of them before issuing the LBC. If they didnt then they did not perform any diligence.
    • silverchoice
    • By silverchoice 20th Aug 18, 11:08 AM
    • 76 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    silverchoice
    This is the reply I sent to the Letter fo Claim:


    "To whom it may concern,

    I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim dated 6th August 2018.

    Your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of evidence your client places reliance upon.

    Your client must know that on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. Since proceedings have not yet been issued, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.

    Your letter lacks specificity and breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents/information that the protocol now requires your client to provide.

    Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.

    As solicitors you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction applicable pre-1 October and the Protocol which applies thereafter (and your client, as a serial litigator of small claims, should likewise be aware of them). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is astounding that a firm of Solicitors are sending a consumer a vague and unevidenced 'Letter before Claim' in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol.

    Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction and now the Protocol.

    I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

    1. an explanation of the cause of action
    2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
    3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    4. what the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated
    5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, provide a copy of that contract bearing my signature. Or is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
    6. a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1
    7. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
    8. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
    9. Details of the additions to the original charge, what that represents and how it has been calculated.


    If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) !!!8211; Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.

    Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.

    Yours Sincerely,"
    • clairey262
    • By clairey262 20th Aug 18, 12:43 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    clairey262
    I sent BW the same letter as above and also got exactly the same reply back. NCP also
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