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  • FIRST POST
    • Pando
    • By Pando 24th Jul 18, 9:51 PM
    • 18Posts
    • 4Thanks
    Pando
    No PCN Served - BW Legal instructed to collect - help please
    • #1
    • 24th Jul 18, 9:51 PM
    No PCN Served - BW Legal instructed to collect - help please 24th Jul 18 at 9:51 PM
    Hello all, and thank you for any advice you may give me ahead of this.
    Today I received a collection letter from bwlegal.co.uk who are collecting for Napier Parking.

    I was never served a PCN on my car and never had any letters sent to me about any fine and so was surprised when BWLegal sent me a letter claiming I owed 100 for a PCN and also 60 for their client's initial legal costs.

    This has hit me at a bad time and I am struggling with various other costs that have decided to group up and form an ambush party on me.
    I have attached photos of two letters that have come through the post in the same letter together.

    Im not sure how to appeal (or if thats even worth trying) because I do not even have PCN number to appeal against. Should I raise a complain with Napier parking? I imagine they will just refer me to the collectors now.

    Any advice anyone could give me would be much appreciated, at this stage a friendly helping hand would be a god-send.
    BW Legal Letter:-
    dropbox.com/s/gb2dzdxjwlb72a1/IMG_20180724_213550.jpg?dl=0
    Napier Parking Letter:-
    dropbox.com/s/1148ixm290dx1wu/IMG_20180725_181037.jpg?dl=0
    Last edited by Pando; 25-07-2018 at 6:16 PM. Reason: Need to remove an address
Page 2
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 9th Aug 18, 1:35 PM
    • 4,203 Posts
    • 5,035 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Why would a sAR put anything on hold?

    Yes of course this is a template...
    • Pando
    • By Pando 9th Aug 18, 5:36 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Pando
    So if I understand you right, they need to issue a Letter of Claim first and if I do not respond to this within a certain time frame they may then proceed to apply for a CCJ?

    What action should I then take upon recieving a Letter of Claim as I would not like to just ignore that on a gamble that they dont manage to secure a CCJ?

    In hindsight the wording "comence country court proceedings" was ambigious and onimous and had the desired effect of scaring me into thinking I would potentially land myself with a CCJ in two weeks time.

    Im sorry I'm such a legal nebie, I have actually read the document new SAR regulations document issued to companys to comply with, and have seen that it is reasonable for them to ask for information for my that would allow them to look up my records, so have complied with sending a bear minumum of information now (name and address), but I'm completely new to the process's leading to a CCJ.

    Thanks again for your advice, the letter is a lot less scary now
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 9th Aug 18, 5:48 PM
    • 38,012 Posts
    • 22,109 Thanks
    Quentin
    You misunderstand

    A lbcca precedes court involvement.

    You only get a ccj if you either ignore a court claim or lose in court

    See the newbies FAQ thread near the top of the forum for advice on Court

    #2 in the FAQ covers Court
    • Pando
    • By Pando 17th Aug 18, 11:01 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Pando
    Quentin thank you for your advice, I have read the section you recommend and have since replied the following. I am now committed to fighting these guys until they have their action dismissed from court.

    "Thank you for your letter of final notice sent on 6th August 2018.

    When your client Napier parking and yourselves Bwlegal first started contacting me, I asked them for details of the basis upon which money was being claimed, including all photographs taken of the vehicle at the relevant time. I also requested to have confirmed to me whether or not my personal data was being processed, and if it was, to provide me with the categories of personal data you have about me in your files and databases.
    You did not provide me with any information you hold on me as requested, you have not told me what time this contravention was supposed to have taken place or supplied me with any photographs as I have requested. Instead you send a letter claiming that I have not responded to your first letter, this is not true, my response on the 28th of July was to ask you for for details pertaining to this case, this is something you yourselves have not yet responded to.

    To reasonably formulate a response an individual must first have all the facts being used against them, as is his or her right. You have not supplied these facts as would be reasonable and fair, instead you have chosen to send an intimidating letter suggesting that my "defense will be unsuccessful"
    You have now sent a Letter Before Claim. However, your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and, again, fails to provide the photographic evidence which I requested as long ago as the 28th of July 2018. It does not even say what the cause of action is. Nor does it contain any mention of what evidence your client intends to rely on, or enclose copies of such evidence.
    This action on the part of your client is a clear breach of its pre-action obligations set out in the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct, with which as solicitors you must surely be familiar (and with which your client, a serial litigator of small claims, must also be familiar). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction binds all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time.
    Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction. Your client cannot simply ignore requests to provide the relevant information and instead seek to carry out legal action against myself.
    I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:
    1. an explanation of the cause of action
    2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
    3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    4. what the details of the claim are (where it is claimed the car was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated, what contractual breach (if any) is being claimed)
    5. a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim
    6. a copy of any alleged contract with the driver
    7. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
    8. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
    9. If they have added anything on to the original charge, what that represents and how it has been calculated.
    I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c) of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).
    Further more since you have not responded to my earlier request for information sent on the 28/07/2018 I will restate my request here :-
    10. Please confirm to me whether or not my personal data is being processed. If it is, please provide me with the categories of personal data you have about me in your files and databases.
    11. In particular, please tell me what you know about me in your information systems, whether or not contained in databases, and including e-mail, documents on your networks, or voice or other media that you may store.
    12. Additionally, please advise me in which countries my personal data is stored, or accessible from. In case you make use of cloud services to store or process my data, please include the countries in which the servers are located where my data are or were (in the past 13 months) stored.
    14. Please provide me with a copy of, or access to, my personal data that you have or are processing.
    15. Please provide me with a detailed accounting of the specific uses and lawful basis that you have made, are making or will be making of my personal data.
    16. Please provide a list of all third parties with whom you have (or may have) shared my personal data.
    17. If you cannot identify with certainty the specific third parties to whom you have disclosed my personal data, please provide a list of third parties to whom you may have disclosed my personal data.
    18. Please also identify which jurisdictions that you have identified in 1-1 above that these third parties with whom you have or may have shared my personal data, from which these third parties have stored or can access my personal data. Please also provide insight in the legal grounds for transferring my personal data to these jurisdictions. Where you have done so, or are doing so, on the basis of appropriate safeguards, please provide a copy.
    19. Additionally, I would like to know what safeguards have been put in place in relation to these third parties that you have identified in relation to the transfer of my personal data.
    20. Please advise how long you store my personal data, and if retention is based upon the category of personal data, please identify how long each category is retained.
    21. If you are additionally collecting personal data about me from any source other than me, please provide me with all information about their source, as referred to in Article 14 of the GDPR.
    22. If you are making automated decisions about me, including profiling, whether or not on the basis of Article 22 of the GDPR, please provide me with information concerning the basis for the logic in making such automated decisions, and the significance and consequences of such processing.
    If you and your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) !!!8211; Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16. I will draw to the court the fact that I have expressly requested this information since as early as [date or month/year of first request] yet your client has refused to provide it, saying that it will not do so until this matter reaches the court.
    Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.
    "
    • Pando
    • By Pando 17th Aug 18, 11:22 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Pando
    Also this :

    "Further to my email sent you you at 22:58 earlier today (17/08/2018) I must address also the new protocols applicable to debt claims.

    Your client must know that on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. Since proceedings have not yet been issued, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.

    Your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of evidence your client places reliance upon.

    Your letter lacks specificity and breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents / information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.

    As solicitors you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction applicable pre-1 October and the Protocol which applies thereafter (and your client, as a serial litigator of small claims, should likewise be aware of them). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is astounding that a firm of Solicitors are sending a consumer a vague and unevidenced 'Letter before Claim' in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol.

    Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction and now the Protocol.

    As well as the 16 items I requested in my earlier email today I also require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

    17. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract.
    18. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
    18. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1 ;establishing yourself as the creditor.
    19. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
    20. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added
    21. Provide a copy of the Information Sheet and the Reply Form."
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 17th Aug 18, 11:50 PM
    • 11,442 Posts
    • 11,971 Thanks
    KeithP
    Hang on... you haven't even got a Letter Before Claim yet, have you?
    .
    • Pando
    • By Pando 23rd Aug 18, 10:57 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Pando
    Keith, I have not had a letter with those words no. I have had a letter that said that if they did not have a payment or response before the 28th of August they would begin proceedings that could result in a court summons. Perhaps I did not need to send the follow-up email (I had assumed this pertained to any letter or demand they had sent that did not have enough information in it).

    I have had a reply to my SAR request from Bwlegal in the meantime, they have not provided any photographic evidence or times of alleged offense. They just sent me a document that outlines their legal basis for processing data, sharing it, and some statements such as they do not automate decision making. I have attached a scanned PDF of these documents below:-

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/kl7fradjq61bquj/New%20Doc%202018-08-23.pdf?dl=0

    They have also attached printouts of all our correspondence via email. And that's it, no answers to my questions given with my original SAR request and no evidence. I should mention that this is Bwlegals response and not Napier parking, who have yet to respond to my request, and who may well produce photos.

    So my next step, unless anyone on here suggests a better way, is to respond asking why they have not given me any answers or provided any evidence so far.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 24th Aug 18, 8:12 AM
    • 20,734 Posts
    • 32,660 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Repeat your request for the specific information not provided by BWL - ask them to confirm whether they hold (or not) the information you are requesting.

    Give them 7 days to respond, failure to do so with the fullest information you require will result in a complaint to the ICO.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 24th Aug 18, 9:55 AM
    • 4,203 Posts
    • 5,035 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    I bet they dont say they will issue a "summons"

    A lBA has to give 30 days
    • Pando
    • By Pando 24th Aug 18, 2:01 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Pando
    Cheers guys, I have repeated my request for information and noted my dissatisfaction in the vague way in which they have responded so far.

    "Thank you for your response with a letter dated 20 August 2018

    Unfortunately, you have not provisioned me with any of the information I requested in my previous emails, instead you have provided a very general (bullet point grouped-categories) outline of your data handling processes. This is extremely vague and does in no way tell me how my personal data obtained, handled, stored or shared.
    You have also sent print-outs of our correspondence. While this is data you hold on me I would appreciate the other data held on me. I will, therefore, repeat my previous request for photographs and information on how my data is used below and I would like some specific answers rather than a general outline on what you believe you can do with data that means absolutely nothing to the average member of the public.

    Can you please provide a relevant and specific response to my request for information as detailed below. I have taken the time to number each item so that you can respond specifically to items.
    See below :- "
    • Pando
    • By Pando 28th Aug 18, 12:37 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Pando
    So Napier parking have now replied to my SAR request. They have included photographs and times and answers to 11 SAR request questions.

    The SAR request answer is here :-
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/o7yzud1y1tmxdrv/SAR%20reply.pdf?dl=0

    I can see that :-

    1. They obtained my address from the DVLA (is this OK? I had not by this time written to the DVLA to ask them not to share my data)

    2. They share my data on 2 cloud services that they say are within the Eurozone of compliance.

    3. I have noticed that while Napier parking mail servers are indeed in the UK, the route goes via an "anti-spam cloud, the IP for which is based in the USA Missouri - Saint Louis. Now I am not sure if this is on my end as part of gmail or theirs. I have attached the mail header if anyone has any better knowledge of how this works the IP I identified is 185.201.18.21

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/d3loz0yeufhws55/email%20header.txt?dl=0

    If item number three turns out to be on their side then hopefully this discovery will help anyone dealing with Napier parking.

    Once again thank you for any help you guys offer in advance, it's becoming a long journey and I have been tempted to just pay it on the way but having come this far I'd like to see it out and appreciate any of you that have tagged along for the ride.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 28th Aug 18, 10:46 PM
    • 64,896 Posts
    • 77,478 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Looks like a 'standard SAR reply template' to me.
    • Pando
    • By Pando 29th Aug 18, 5:28 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Pando
    Thank you Coupon-Mad, even though its a template, it does answer the SAR questions, it was sent alongside another PDF containing all the evidence I asked for.

    I can't see any problems with the photos they have sent of the signage, the lettering is large enough, the car was snapped from multiple angles showing it was clearly parked in a bay.

    I have checked the AOS list and cannot see Napier parking on the list, however :-
    https://www.britishparking.co.uk/BPA-Approved-Operators
    therefore I am assuming they are not allowed to request and use data from the DVLA. I believe I will base my response on this. Anyone any thoughts or tidbits before I commit to this course?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 29th Aug 18, 5:31 PM
    • 20,494 Posts
    • 25,833 Thanks
    Redx
    you assume wrong

    check the IPC AOS list
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Aug 18, 5:33 PM
    • 64,896 Posts
    • 77,478 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Napier jumped from the BPA to the IPC ages ago. Of course they can get DVLA data.
    • Pando
    • By Pando 30th Aug 18, 10:07 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Pando
    Ok thank you for that, so they are accredited. They have valid evidence, they don't seem to be sharing my data outside of the EU and neither they or their partners are using it for anything other than the purpose of following up on claims as is their business.
    I feel like the only thing I can do now is wait for a letter before claim to come in.
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