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  • FIRST POST
    • mbaxter123
    • By mbaxter123 22nd Jul 18, 12:18 PM
    • 19Posts
    • 4Thanks
    mbaxter123
    parking charge - at county court defence stage
    • #1
    • 22nd Jul 18, 12:18 PM
    parking charge - at county court defence stage 22nd Jul 18 at 12:18 PM
    Hi All,
    After reading a few cases on here, i'm honestly a little bit bamboozled.
    I have ignored all 'dept' letters and now am at the County Court stage. I have been on moneyclaim and only ticked the box stating i will 'defend in full'
    So i am now at the stage of trying to put a defence together.
    In short terms drove into a car park was caught by an anpr camera going in and then exiting approx 13 mins later. The car in question was a hire car, which the hire company charged me too. (auto charge on a card)
    There are some listings that state they cannot prove i was driving, others saying the signage was poor (i dont have any evidence of this as i didnt know i would get a pcn and i live hours away)
    In my case i didn't pay for parking at all, we drove in, looked at the board, then drove out.
    I just need a helping had where to start with a defence.

    Thanks in advance
    M
Page 1
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 22nd Jul 18, 12:30 PM
    • 11,233 Posts
    • 11,802 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #2
    • 22nd Jul 18, 12:30 PM
    • #2
    • 22nd Jul 18, 12:30 PM
    What is the Date of Issue of your Claim Form?

    Have you done the Acknowledgement of Service to get yourself an extras fourteen days to prepare your Defence?

    How to do the AoS, and everything else you need to prepare for a court case, is fully described in post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.
    .
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 22nd Jul 18, 12:37 PM
    • 20,546 Posts
    • 32,457 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 22nd Jul 18, 12:37 PM
    • #3
    • 22nd Jul 18, 12:37 PM
    Which parking company? The progress of your case and the route it takes is likely to be dependent on which PPC is involved.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • mbaxter123
    • By mbaxter123 22nd Jul 18, 12:57 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    mbaxter123
    • #4
    • 22nd Jul 18, 12:57 PM
    • #4
    • 22nd Jul 18, 12:57 PM
    The date of issue is 18th of july. Yes i have done the acknowledgment of service.

    The original was from PCL

    Ive been through the newbies section too but struggle to find defences that would work with mine.
    Last edited by mbaxter123; 22-07-2018 at 3:01 PM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 22nd Jul 18, 1:17 PM
    • 20,546 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #5
    • 22nd Jul 18, 1:17 PM
    • #5
    • 22nd Jul 18, 1:17 PM
    The original was from PCL
    Can you give us the full name please? Many acronyms used by the PPCs are very similar and we run the risk of misadvising if we make a wrong assumption.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • mbaxter123
    • By mbaxter123 22nd Jul 18, 1:33 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    mbaxter123
    • #6
    • 22nd Jul 18, 1:33 PM
    • #6
    • 22nd Jul 18, 1:33 PM
    Parking Charge Limited.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 22nd Jul 18, 1:45 PM
    • 20,340 Posts
    • 25,702 Thanks
    Redx
    • #7
    • 22nd Jul 18, 1:45 PM
    • #7
    • 22nd Jul 18, 1:45 PM
    Parking Charge Limited.
    Originally posted by mbaxter123

    so same as this thread then ?

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5871413

    a BPA member using B W LEGAL maybe ?

    seems strange that 2 people have posted about court claims yet neither of them seems to have appealed and used POPLA either
    Last edited by Redx; 22-07-2018 at 1:48 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 22nd Jul 18, 1:46 PM
    • 20,546 Posts
    • 32,457 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 22nd Jul 18, 1:46 PM
    • #8
    • 22nd Jul 18, 1:46 PM
    Parking Charge Limited.
    Originally posted by mbaxter123
    Thanks.

    They've never previously attempted to pursue any cases via county court proceedings, so rather surprised at your case.

    http://www.parkingappeals.info/companydata/Parking_Charge.html

    Is there a firm of solicitors involved?

    In terms of developing your defence you'll need to gain an understanding of:

    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (read all of Schedule 4, but then concentrate on paras 13 and 14 about hire vehicles)

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

    Keeper liability (you were the 'keeper' of the hire vehicle on the day)

    Grace Periods (BPA Code of Practice, paragraph 13)

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/AOS_Code_of_Practice_January_2018.pdf

    Landowner Authority (need to challenge PCL's standing)

    Signage (BPA Code of Practice, para 18 and Appendix B)

    Then read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #2 to understand the entire court process, from the issue of the Letter Before Action/Claim, right through to the actual hearing. This will be your 'Bible' to refer to as you progress along the court route.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 22-07-2018 at 1:48 PM.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • mbaxter123
    • By mbaxter123 22nd Jul 18, 1:59 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    mbaxter123
    • #9
    • 22nd Jul 18, 1:59 PM
    • #9
    • 22nd Jul 18, 1:59 PM
    Thanks for the info. I assume the solicitors are BW Legal. I'll read the threads you pointed out and make some notes. Thanks again M
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Jul 18, 2:19 PM
    • 64,896 Posts
    • 77,459 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You assume? But you have the solicitor details on the claim form!

    Look again at the linked thread. I just explained to that person how to search for what you need to suit your case. For your case, as hirer, you have an extra defence point and you need to search:

    defence hirer POFA paragraph 13


    and/or

    defence grace period

    ...changing the default search to 'advanced' and show posts (NOT THREADS!).

    Please remove the mention of who was driving from post #4 - URGENT!!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 22nd Jul 18, 2:24 PM
    • 20,340 Posts
    • 25,702 Thanks
    Redx
    The date of issue is 18th of july. Yes i have done the acknowledgment of service.

    The original was from PCL

    Ive been through the newbies section too but struggle to find defences that would work with mine. I dont have any evidence. THE DRIVER didnt make any attempt to pay for parking ect.
    Originally posted by mbaxter123
    learn to use words that do not identify individuals

    the words "MY , ME , MYSELF & I" should not be used

    acceptable words are

    DRIVER
    KEEPER
    CLAIMANT
    DEFENDANT

    etc


    an SAR under GDPR 2018 will get you their evidence etc
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • mbaxter123
    • By mbaxter123 22nd Jul 18, 5:29 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    mbaxter123
    1st draft of defence letter - strangely satisfying to write:

    IN THE COUNTY COURT
    Claim Number: will be inserted

    Between

    PARKING CHARGE LTD
    Claimant
    &

    ME
    Defendant

    Defence Statement

    I assert that I am not liable to the Claimant for the sum claimed, or any amount at all for the following reasons:
    1. The claimant has provided no evidence (other than an ANPR photograph of the front and rear of the vehicle ) that the Defendant was the driver. The defendant avers that the Claimant is therefore limited to pursuing the keeper under the Protection of Freedoms act 2012 or !!!8216;POFA!!!8217;
    2. There was no sufficient grace period offered to the Defendant as per the AOS Code of Practice (of which Parking Charge LTD is a member of) recommend a grace period of 10 minutes to read terms and conditions. As there are no adequate signs outside the building, the Defendant had no reason to believe a charge started from the time entered in the car park. The time spent within the car park was 13 minutes and 19 seconds (assuming the ANPR equipment has been properly maintained and serviced)
    3. Inadequate signage though-out the car park, advising the entry into a contract therefore no contract was agreed by the Defendant and also using forceful letters to the defendant clearly breaches the AOS Code of Practice !!!8211; heading 9.5 !!!8216;You must not use predatory or misleading tactics to lure drivers into incurring parking charges. Such instances will be viewed as a serious and sanctionable instance of noncompliance and may go to the Professional Conduct Panel!!!8217; The entrance to the car park has a strict one way system that drivers have to follow upon entry forcing the car into the ANPR trap.
    4. No authority from the land owner to the Claimant have been sent to the Defendant confirming the legality of the claim and charges. In the absence of strict proof of the land owners authority I submit that the Claimant has no grounds for a case at all and invite the court to strike out the claim.
    5. The claim fails to comply with Civil Procedure Rule 16.4 and Practice Direction 16, 7.5-7.5 by failing to provide a copy of the contract details of any agreement by conduct
    6. Fails to comply with Practice Direction 22 paragraph 3.1 sets out who may sign a statement of truth, Para 3.10 states !!!8216;a legal representative who signs a statement of truth must sign in his own name and not that of his firm or employer!!!8217;
    7. The Claimant is trying to recover additional charges such as legal costs 50.00 and court fees 25.00. The Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012 does not permit the Claimant to recover a sum greater than the parking charge on the day before a Notice to Keeper was issued. The Claimant cannot recover additional charges. The Defendant also has reasonable belief that the Claimant has not incurred the stated additional costs and is put to strict proof they actually have occurred. As a small claim, the legal costs cannot be recovered and be struck out.


    Considering all off the statements above the Defendant requests the case be dismissed
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Jul 18, 5:32 PM
    • 64,896 Posts
    • 77,459 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You need a statement of truth, and

    Defence Statement
    should be

    DEFENCE
    • mbaxter123
    • By mbaxter123 22nd Jul 18, 6:49 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    mbaxter123
    By Statement of truth do you mean something along the lines of 'the defendant understands all statements to be true' or to that effect
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Jul 18, 10:51 PM
    • 64,896 Posts
    • 77,459 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You need to read other defences in the NEWBIES thread; that's why they are there.

    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 23rd Jul 18, 6:12 AM
    • 3,783 Posts
    • 6,224 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    In short terms drove into a car park was caught by an anpr camera going in and then exiting approx 13 mins later. In my case i didn't pay for parking at all, we drove in, looked at the board, then drove out.
    What would be the explanation for taking 13 minutes to read the board then leave. Was it a particularly large car park or was the board difficult to find?
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to RTFM - the Civil Procedure Rules
    2. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend- See #1
    3. Failing to RTFCL - the Court letters
    4. Template defences that say nothing - See #1
    5. Forgetting about the Witness Statement - See #3
    • mbaxter123
    • By mbaxter123 23rd Jul 18, 8:31 AM
    • 19 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    mbaxter123
    There was a very large board with minute writing. Not very clear on the actual charges. Then there is a tiny little board next to the ticket machine. If you pay by phone or online its 10 per day but if you pay at the machine its 2 per hour. Its all very confusing.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 23rd Jul 18, 3:48 PM
    • 64,896 Posts
    • 77,459 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Good, that's what we wanted you to expand on, in your defence.
    • mbaxter123
    • By mbaxter123 11th Aug 18, 10:20 AM
    • 19 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    mbaxter123
    Ok All, sorry for the late reply, i've been crazy busy at work...

    Thanks for all your help with this by the way,

    Anyway here is the final draft of my defence... formatting is different to the actual printed version.

    IN THE COUNTY COURT
    Claim Number:

    Between

    PARKING CHARGE LTD
    Claimant
    &

    (MY NAME WHEN THE TIME ARRISES)
    Defendant

    Defence Statement

    I assert that I am not liable to the Claimant for the sum claimed, or any amount at all for the following reasons:

    1. The claimant has provided no evidence (other than an ANPR photograph of the front and rear of the vehicle ) that the Defendant was the driver. The defendant avers that the Claimant is therefore limited to pursuing the keeper under the Protection of Freedoms act 2012 or !!!8216;POFA!!!8217;

    2. There was no sufficient grace period offered to the Defendant as per the AOS Code of Practice (of which Parking Charge LTD is a member of) recommend a grace period of 10 minutes to read terms and conditions. As there are no adequate signs outside the building, the Defendant had no reason to believe a charge started from the time entered in the car park. The time spent within the car park was 13 minutes and 19 seconds (assuming the ANPR equipment has been properly maintained and serviced)

    3. Inadequate signage though-out the car park, advising the entry into a contract therefore no contract was agreed by the Defendant and also using forceful letters to the defendant clearly breaches the AOS Code of Practice !!!8211; heading 9.5 !!!8216;You must not use predatory or misleading tactics to lure drivers into incurring parking charges. Such instances will be viewed as a serious and sanctionable instance of noncompliance and may go to the Professional Conduct Panel!!!8217; The entrance to the car park has a strict one way system that drivers have to follow upon entry forcing the car into the ANPR trap. Once inside the car park, the parking sign is very hard to understand, with parking all day not actually what customers are charged. The parking is charged at 2 per hour which non of the outdoor signage represents.

    4. No authority from the land owner to the Claimant have been sent to the Defendant confirming the legality of the claim and charges. In the absence of strict proof of the land owners authority I submit that the Claimant has no grounds for a case at all and invite the court to strike out the claim.

    5. The claim fails to comply with Civil Procedure Rule 16.4 and Practice Direction 16, 7.5-7.5 by failing to provide a copy of the contract details of any agreement by conduct

    6. Fails to comply with Practice Direction 22 paragraph 3.1 sets out who may sign a statement of truth, Para 3.10 states !!!8216;a legal representative who signs a statement of truth must sign in his own name and not that of his firm or employer!!!8217;

    cont...
    7. The Claimant is trying to recover additional charges such as legal costs 50.00 and court fees 25.00. The Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012 does not permit the Claimant to recover a sum greater than the parking charge on the day before a Notice to Keeper was issued. The Claimant cannot recover additional charges. The Defendant also has reasonable belief that the Claimant has not incurred the stated additional costs and is put to strict proof they actually have occurred. As a small claim, the legal costs cannot be recovered and be struck out.


    Considering all off the statements above the Defendant requests the case be dismissed

    I believe that all of the facts in this defence against BW Legal/Parking Charge LTD in the claim E7DP4F6F to be true 11/08/2018



    Signed!!!8230;!!!8230;!!!8230;!!!8230;..


    Date!!!8230;!!!8230;!!!8230;!!!8230;!!!8230;.
    • bargepole
    • By bargepole 11th Aug 18, 11:21 AM
    • 2,496 Posts
    • 7,152 Thanks
    bargepole
    It still says 'Defence Statement'. The heading should be 'Defence'.

    The correct wording for the footer is:

    I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true.
    Name
    Signature
    Date

    (Don't mention BWLegal, they are not a party to the case).

    And you still haven't mentioned the most important fact, which is that the driver entered the car park, read the signs, and decided to leave without parking. The Judge will be more interested in this fact than anything else.

    Also, unless the defendant wasn't driving at the time, I would leave out all that stuff in para.1 about keeper liability. The Judge can ask you in court if you were driving, and if the answer is yes, it just makes you look like a clever !!!! trying to get off on a technicality.

    I have been providing assistance, including Lay Representation at Court hearings (current score: won 35, lost 10), to defendants in parking cases for over 5 years. I have an LLB (Hons) degree, and am a Graduate member of CILEx, studying towards a Fellowship (equivalent to solicitor) in Civil Litigation. However, any advice given on these forums by me is NOT formal legal advice, and I accept no liability for its accuracy.
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