Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • potts8
    • By potts8 19th Jul 18, 3:51 PM
    • 22Posts
    • 1Thanks
    potts8
    Would you install an oil boiler?
    • #1
    • 19th Jul 18, 3:51 PM
    Would you install an oil boiler? 19th Jul 18 at 3:51 PM
    I'm at the point where I'm about the renew my heating system currently oil boiler with a vented design and based on the advice of a couple of plumbers I have had round both have advised that I stick with oil(They also install ASHP).
    So why do I still have a niggling feeling that I am being foolish to be installing a new oil system in 2018 when the future is green energy?


    I was advised that the ASHP wouldn't be efficient in my property due to it's age and lack of insulation(1980's, part cavity wall insul, full loft insul, solid floors) but it just feels like I'm missing a trick and I should be considering something else.


    So what do you plan to do next if your boiler gives up the ghost, remain with oil or install a heat pump / similar?
    Last edited by potts8; 19-07-2018 at 4:07 PM.
Page 1
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 19th Jul 18, 4:32 PM
    • 3,789 Posts
    • 2,389 Thanks
    matelodave
    • #2
    • 19th Jul 18, 4:32 PM
    • #2
    • 19th Jul 18, 4:32 PM
    If you've got the tank and all the plumbing and just need a boiler then stay with oil and just replace the boiler - why does it need replacing.

    If you were starting from scratch then an ASHP might be worth considering but you cant just bung one onto your existing system and hope it will work.

    The heating system needs to be designed with an ASHP in mind, so you need radiators and plumbing suited to the lower flow temperatures otherwise you'll be very disappointed with the performance and the running costs.

    We had a similar dilemma eight years ago when we refurbed our bungalow but as it had ratty old storage heaters and we were starting afresh we decided that the additional cost of an ASHP over an oil installation was worth it. It also had the benefit of not having an oil tank in the garden. We went the whole hog and installed an overlay underfloor heating system as well.

    It's worked very well for us as we are at home all day and the ASHP works best when just ticking over rather than trying to just heat in the mornings and evenings. The running cost is around 450-500 a year and we get 700 a year (for seven years) back in RHI payments.
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    Look after our planet - it's the only one with beer
    • NeilForth
    • By NeilForth 4th Aug 18, 8:35 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    NeilForth
    • #3
    • 4th Aug 18, 8:35 AM
    • #3
    • 4th Aug 18, 8:35 AM
    I would stay well clear of oil fired heating systems. The main reason being is the Government has proposed to start a 10-year phase-out plan of oil beginning in 2020 as part of carbon emission reduction. If this is to start, which is highly likely, then oil prices will skyrocket, and so will the spare parts costs of oil boilers as the demand for them reduces.

    At present, LPG looks to be the way to go for most people. Such things as air source and ground source heat pumps work well, but they are costly to install, fix and without using underfloor heating or upgrading a properties insulation, which is often not practical in many existing properties, you will need to use much larger radiators due to the low operating temperatures of the heating system.

    Neil M. MCIPHE RP RHP EngTech
    Last edited by NeilForth; 04-08-2018 at 8:39 AM.
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 5th Aug 18, 7:16 AM
    • 26,385 Posts
    • 95,443 Thanks
    Davesnave
    • #4
    • 5th Aug 18, 7:16 AM
    • #4
    • 5th Aug 18, 7:16 AM
    I would stay well clear of oil fired heating systems.

    Well, you probably would, since you don't appear to fit them!

    The main reason being is the Government has proposed to start a 10-year phase-out plan of oil beginning in 2020 as part of carbon emission reduction. If this is to start, which is highly likely, then oil prices will skyrocket, and so will the spare parts costs of oil boilers as the demand for them reduces.
    Originally posted by NeilForth

    What the current government is telling people:

    As announced in the Clean Growth Strategy, for homes off the gas grid, we intend to phase out the installation of high carbon fossil fuel heating in new and existing buildings during the 2020s, starting with new builds.

    "During the 2020s" isn't the same as 2020, nor does the thread here relate to new builds.

    As I understand it, the government intends to allow replacement of old, inefficient oil boilers within its strategy, as this is still one of the most affordable options for those living in old, inefficiently insulated rural housing.

    How the oil industry responds longer term is an unknown, but I can't see them ignoring biofuel development if it becomes essential to their survival, nor can I imagine a situation where LPG becomes incredibly cheap, because no fuel source exists in a price vacuum.
    A garden is never so good as it will be next year....
    • NeilForth
    • By NeilForth 5th Aug 18, 4:05 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    NeilForth
    • #5
    • 5th Aug 18, 4:05 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Aug 18, 4:05 PM
    We do not fit heat source pumps either, or other alternatives, we never said do not fit those, so what we fit has little do with it. Just my personal opinion, but regardless, it is better that people are aware of what is in the air so they can make an as informed decision as possible.
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 5th Aug 18, 4:28 PM
    • 3,789 Posts
    • 2,389 Thanks
    matelodave
    • #6
    • 5th Aug 18, 4:28 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Aug 18, 4:28 PM
    looks like a bit of crafty advertising going on here
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    Look after our planet - it's the only one with beer
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 5th Aug 18, 6:26 PM
    • 26,385 Posts
    • 95,443 Thanks
    Davesnave
    • #7
    • 5th Aug 18, 6:26 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Aug 18, 6:26 PM
    looks like a bit of crafty advertising going on here
    Originally posted by matelodave
    Yes, the poster's signature has 'developed.' Forum rules are relevant now.



    From the MSE Forum Guide

    "The only links permitted in signatures are those of the MSE Team, the Forum Team, Board Guides and links to charity (if they are on the Charity Commission Register of Charities). Members who have been given permission to have a link in their signature are added to the Members allowed signature links list. Please don't try to subvert this rule by posting non-activated links (where the text is visible but not clickable), half-links to Twitter/Facebook pages, or suggesting a Google search; they'll be removed when reported.
    Links are allowed in profile pages but please don't mention them in your signature in any way."
    A garden is never so good as it will be next year....
    • NeilForth
    • By NeilForth 5th Aug 18, 10:20 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    NeilForth
    • #8
    • 5th Aug 18, 10:20 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Aug 18, 10:20 PM
    Thanks for pointing that out, it has been removed from the signature.
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 6th Aug 18, 10:47 PM
    • 1,300 Posts
    • 725 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    • #9
    • 6th Aug 18, 10:47 PM
    • #9
    • 6th Aug 18, 10:47 PM
    I would stay well clear of oil fired heating systems. The main reason being is the Government has proposed to start a 10-year phase-out plan of oil beginning in 2020 as part of carbon emission reduction. If this is to start, which is highly likely, then oil prices will skyrocket, and so will the spare parts costs of oil boilers as the demand for them reduces.

    At present, LPG looks to be the way to go for most people. Such things as air source and ground source heat pumps work well, but they are costly to install, fix and without using underfloor heating or upgrading a properties insulation, which is often not practical in many existing properties, you will need to use much larger radiators due to the low operating temperatures of the heating system.

    Neil M. MCIPHE RP RHP EngTech
    Originally posted by NeilForth

    You are probably not too knowledgeable about ASHP/GSHP systems.
    They do not always need oversized radiators and underfloor heating. The heat source does have to be sized correctly.
    Have had a GSHP here for over 12 years, the first unfortunately damaged by the earthquake a couple of years ago and has been replaced. House here is 250 odd years old with only roof insulation and double glazed windows.

    No maintenance costs as such for the heating or .
    hot water system, just a 30 minute check per year. No fire risk from LPG or oil.
    How much does it cost for a annual boiler service in the UK , which is not really required on a normal heat pump? Will you also get the RHI on a LPG install.

    I do not know the requirements in the UK as I do not live there, but know we have a 28m2 temporary house that has used 1000 euros of lpg in 1 year, while we waited to move back in after the builders finished the repairs.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • NeilForth
    • By NeilForth 7th Aug 18, 8:19 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    NeilForth
    I rather like the principle of heat pumps, but in reality, they cost far more to install here than what most people can afford. Plus, in the UK we have many small properties, so even if that person could afford to install such a system, the payback time in savings from the fuel in comparison to the installation costs in a typical 2-3 bedroom home here could take a very long time, even longer than appliances expected lifespan. They are being used in larger homes with great success for those who can afford to buy them, but then again there are lots of people with large houses opting for super insulation and to remain with such fuels as gas.

    From what I have seen, the highest temperature heat pumps available work up to around 70 DegC, boilers, on the other hand, go up to around 85 DegC. Many homes in this country, especially the older stock, would need at least some modification to the heating system or the insulation of the property for the property to heat sufficiently with a heat source providing a 70 DegC output, again adding to cost. Granted condensing boilers need lower return temperatures to achieve their best efficiencies, but most are installed without that consideration. Many people here they are either not interested in paying for it due to such things as payback times, or they cannot afford the extra several hundred pounds to upgrade a few extra radiators. That is the reality and that is the main reason why heat pumps haven't take off here. What parts of Europe are like I am unsure.

    In regards to heat pumps maintenance costs, I have seen them go for 25 years with minimal issue, but then, on the other hand, I have seen plenty need replacement PCB's that are several hundreds of pounds just to purchase fail in a short space of time. I have seen other parts fail, such as compressors, and cost thousands.

    Boiler servicing is not a mandatory requirement here. Even if people serviced their boilers as recommended annually, it is a very competitive market, so it would only cost around 60-80 on average.

    Heat pumps have their place, but the way the market is here at present, if oil is phased out unless they can find a cost-effective green solution as already mentioned, such as biofuel, most people who do not have access to mains gas will opt for LPG unless heat pumps come down in cost or some form of scheme is brought in to effectively supplement their installation cost.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 7th Aug 18, 11:30 AM
    • 27,492 Posts
    • 13,485 Thanks
    Cardew
    I rather like the principle of heat pumps, but in reality, they cost far more to install here than what most people can afford. Plus, in the UK we have many small properties, so even if that person could afford to install such a system, the payback time in savings from the fuel in comparison to the installation costs in a typical 2-3 bedroom home here could take a very long time, even longer than appliances expected lifespan. They are being used in larger homes with great success for those who can afford to buy them, but then again there are lots of people with large houses opting for super insulation and to remain with such fuels as gas.

    From what I have seen, the highest temperature heat pumps available work up to around 70 DegC, boilers, on the other hand, go up to around 85 DegC. Many homes in this country, especially the older stock, would need at least some modification to the heating system or the insulation of the property for the property to heat sufficiently with a heat source providing a 70 DegC output, again adding to cost. Granted condensing boilers need lower return temperatures to achieve their best efficiencies, but most are installed without that consideration. Many people here they are either not interested in paying for it due to such things as payback times, or they cannot afford the extra several hundred pounds to upgrade a few extra radiators. That is the reality and that is the main reason why heat pumps haven't take off here. What parts of Europe are like I am unsure.

    In regards to heat pumps maintenance costs, I have seen them go for 25 years with minimal issue, but then, on the other hand, I have seen plenty need replacement PCB's that are several hundreds of pounds just to purchase fail in a short space of time. I have seen other parts fail, such as compressors, and cost thousands.

    Boiler servicing is not a mandatory requirement here. Even if people serviced their boilers as recommended annually, it is a very competitive market, so it would only cost around 60-80 on average.

    Heat pumps have their place, but the way the market is here at present, if oil is phased out unless they can find a cost-effective green solution as already mentioned, such as biofuel, most people who do not have access to mains gas will opt for LPG unless heat pumps come down in cost or some form of scheme is brought in to effectively supplement their installation cost.
    Originally posted by NeilForth

    There are many threads on MSE about the limitations of Heat pumps - mainly ASHP.


    For maximum efficiency they should be run with very low water temperatures(35C - 40C) and left on continually(set back overnight)
    which makes them particularly suitable for properties that are occupied 24/7. Unlike conventional gas/oil/LPG CH it is not feasible to be out all day and expect to switch on a heat pump on return to the house.



    In your post above you have ignored the Renewable Heat Initiative(RHI) https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-programmes/domestic-rhi/applicants/eligible-heating-systems which goes a long way to offset installation costs on suitable properties.


    Despite the RHI conditions, the practice of heat pumps fitted by 'Cowboys' has still not been addressed, and manufacturers will sell a heat pump to anyone, and not take responsibility for its performance after installation.
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 7th Aug 18, 12:21 PM
    • 1,300 Posts
    • 725 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    Just to stop some of the scaremongering you are trying.
    I checked back on some of the prices that I was given for pcb and compressor cost for my unit here.
    The pcb was 108 euros and the compressor 928 euros + vat. So nowhere near your hundreds and thousands. Normal operating flow temps for rads is 55c.


    If you can read Italian then this may help you understand heat pumps better, or use a translator.

    https://www.geotherm.it/blog/pompe-calore-verona-provincia/


    As regards to them only being suitable for new houses then we have a number of installs in old buildings with little insulation and operating on original radiator systems, which the customers are very happy with. Most have saved thousands on the lpg costs they had from before.


    Yes, they are more expensive, but only rely on electricity, but if your calor deliverer cannot get to you in adverse weather conditions?


    We opted out of lpg because of the cost, plus did not want a gas bomb in the garden with all its warning signs and siting restrictions etc.
    Last edited by lovesgshp; 07-08-2018 at 12:24 PM. Reason: missed point
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
    • Smiley Dan
    • By Smiley Dan 13th Aug 18, 7:59 PM
    • 944 Posts
    • 292 Thanks
    Smiley Dan
    I currently have an oil boiler, and the answer for me is no, I would not fit an oil boiler, assuming the house is refurbished to a high performance standard. This gives you a low maintenance, healthy and comfortable house. I am in the midst of this now, and the day I get rid of the oil tank is a day I look forward to. I will probably replace with an ASHP.

    However, that's the best solution; it's not the cheapest and so I can hardly blame others for picking the short term value option.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

2,228Posts Today

9,509Users online

Martin's Twitter