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  • FIRST POST
    • Emily Joy
    • By Emily Joy 17th Jul 18, 3:13 PM
    • 150Posts
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    Emily Joy
    Virgin Money - dispute transaction?
    • #1
    • 17th Jul 18, 3:13 PM
    Virgin Money - dispute transaction? 17th Jul 18 at 3:13 PM
    I have a Virgin Money all-rounder credit card which gives 12 months interest free on purchases + no non-sterling transaction fee + no balance transfer fee.

    Travelling in Asia where it was hard to find an English-speaking shop assistant/cashier I was caught by DCC a couple of times and it was a reasonable amount. I would like to dispute these transactions as in reality I wasn't given a choice to be charged in pounds on in local currency. (The shop assistant kept a POS terminal in his hands all the time).

    I've tried to contact Virgin Money by secure messaging but didn't get any reply, just an automatic confirmation email saying they are going to reply within 3 days which they didn't.

    I've tried visiting a local Virgin Money store and was told they don't deal with Credit Cards.

    I've tried calling the number on the back of the card and after being on hold for some 40 minutes was told that they can't help as it is for the store to decide.

    Any suggestions on how to proceed are very welcome.
Page 2
    • Emily Joy
    • By Emily Joy 4th Aug 18, 2:31 PM
    • 150 Posts
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    Emily Joy
    If you have a receipt in currency A but you were charged in currency B then there is a chargeback for this and its 4834 POI Currency Conversion.
    Originally posted by eco_warrior
    Just to avoid future possible confusions: 4834 is duplicate transaction, 4846 is POI Currency conversion.
    • Terry Towelling
    • By Terry Towelling 6th Aug 18, 9:21 PM
    • 352 Posts
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    Terry Towelling
    I can't believe the standard of VMs customer service.

    I don't know how you've explained it to them but you should simply write and say you undertook a transaction in the local currency (as per a copy of the MasterCard transaction receipt you are providing for them) and the retailer has then converted this into Sterling for processing in a manner not authorised by you and unknown to you.

    You have looked at the exchange rates prevalent at the time and, by your calculations a local currency transaction converted into Sterling by MasterCard should have come to about X whereas the unauthorised conversion done by the retailer means you've been charged Y and that you have lost out by Z.

    As the Chargeback in question has to send back the full amount for proper processing in the local currency, there is still a risk to you because the X-rate may have moved in the intervening time. To prevent this being an issue the processing bank is supposed (I believe) to resend the transaction in the correct currency using the processing date of the original transaction. If they don't do this you could find yourself losing out again and you'd have to re-dispute it. There is also a possibility that rates may have moved in your favour and you get charged even less than you were expecting.

    You could of course ask VM to just write off the difference because it is going to cost them a few quid to handle the dispute (and has done already) and it may be in their best interests just to write it off. If they refuse to do anything you'll need to raise a formal complaint. If they refuse to write off the difference and insist on doing a proper chargeback (if there is still time) you may have to go through this all again if it gets reprocessed wrongly. Stick with it though, it's the only way that VM is going to learn.

    Keep insisting and you will get your money back.
    • chattychappy
    • By chattychappy 7th Aug 18, 2:31 AM
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    chattychappy
    Although people often assume that they are presented with a terminal and authorise the amount on the screen, I did have the experience in a Madrid hotel where I authorised (by PIN) a EURO amount on the screen and returned the device to the receptionist as instructed. He pressed a button and THEN it offered HIM the choice to bill in GBP or EURO. Before I had a chance to say anything, he selected EURO, so no harm done.

    I assume he didn't take advantage of the situation either because it was hotel policy not to use DCC, or I had previously told him I wanted to pay in EURO.

    On all other occasions, the GBP/LOCAL option is offered before I type in the PIN, which is how it should be in my book.

    But given the OP has a yuan receipt, I do wonder if something similar happened - she authorised a yuan amount, but the guy switched it to GBP after the receipt was printed.
    • Warmq
    • By Warmq 7th Aug 18, 9:32 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Warmq
    I travel the world as a part of my life.
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 7th Aug 18, 10:03 AM
    • 7,842 Posts
    • 8,657 Thanks
    eskbanker
    I travel the world as a part of my life.
    Originally posted by Warmq
    Well I'm sure that OP will find that a really helpful and constructive contribution to the discussion!
    • zx81
    • By zx81 7th Aug 18, 10:04 AM
    • 18,039 Posts
    • 19,249 Thanks
    zx81
    Just one of a number of inane post building posts. I suspect the good stuff is still to come.
    • Emily Joy
    • By Emily Joy 7th Aug 18, 4:17 PM
    • 150 Posts
    • 66 Thanks
    Emily Joy
    I can't believe the standard of VMs customer service.
    Originally posted by Terry Towelling
    As per the initial post, Virgin Money representatives seem to think I should go back to the retailer and sort it out. Based on my previous experience with Lloyds/HSBC I was assuming it would be easier to sort out with the credit card provider, at least we speak the same language.

    I am waiting for a letter from them explaining this in detail in writing.
    Last edited by Emily Joy; 07-08-2018 at 4:23 PM.
    • Emily Joy
    • By Emily Joy 7th Aug 18, 4:22 PM
    • 150 Posts
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    Emily Joy
    It would be interesting to see that regulation tested in this instance. The OP is travelling in a country where he does not speak the native language. Would the expectation therefore be for the shop assistant is able to communicate in English to facilitate this choice? Personally, I cannot see that standing up.
    Originally posted by MEM62
    Most people travel countries where they don't speak the language. The difficulty in China is that they have their own payment system, called UnionPay, as well as web-based WeChatPay and AliPay, and their shops assistants simply are not very familiar with western CC. For instance, in a large Carrefour there could be only one check-out which takes Mastercard/Visa.
    Last edited by Emily Joy; 12-08-2018 at 9:38 PM.
    • Terry Towelling
    • By Terry Towelling 7th Aug 18, 8:15 PM
    • 352 Posts
    • 247 Thanks
    Terry Towelling
    As per the initial post, Virgin Money representatives seem to think I should go back to the retailer and sort it out. Based on my previous experience with Lloyds/HSBC I was assuming it would be easier to sort out with the credit card provider, at least we speak the same language.

    I am waiting for a letter from them explaining this in detail in writing.
    Originally posted by Emily Joy
    I wouldn't wait if I were you. Get your written complaint in up front.

    From what you have said, their letter will probably just say the transaction was undertaken in Sterling in China and has therefore not gone through any conversion process beyond what the retailer did at the point of sale and as that conversion must have been done with your consent, there is nothing they can do about it.

    You need to ram it home to them that you did not consent to any point of sale conversion into Sterling and that your transaction receipt clearly demonstrates you agreed to pay in local currency. I am assuming that the receipt you have is the cc transaction receipt and not just the till receipt. Virgin will have no idea what is on the tran receipt and will just be going by the info in the tran message, which will presumably show the source currency as Sterling (826). This is the argument you need to 'head off at the pass'.

    You need to be quite categorical in your assertion that you agreed to undertake a local currency transaction and that you are not going to take the hit for something the retailer may have done after you had completed your part of the transaction. Tell them that you are well aware of the practice of Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) and that you would never consent to it (and never have done) because you know the x-rate provided by the retailer is going to be a retail rate that suits them and probably 'loaded' significantly to favour them, whereas you know the rates used by MasterCard and Visa are generally very good wholesale rates and will always beat any retail rate provided at retailer level - even allowing for the type of conversion loadings often added by card issuers (of which there shouldn't be any with the type of card you have).

    Obviously only tell them this if it is true and bear in mind the possible issues (mentioned in a previous post) that may come up if a Chargeback is done and the subsequent reprocessing is not done correctly. Your best outcome will be for Virgin to agree to simply write off the difference and not bother with a Chargeback, so it will pay you to know your rates and know what level of overcharge you believe has occurred.
    • SnowTiger
    • By SnowTiger 7th Aug 18, 9:37 PM
    • 3,349 Posts
    • 2,316 Thanks
    SnowTiger
    I am waiting for a letter from them explaining this in detail in writing.
    Originally posted by Emily Joy
    Good idea.

    Keep it simple and send them a copy of the receipt. And get proof of posting from the PO.

    All you need to say is that the receipt says you paid the retailer X yuan, but Virgin Money's statement says you paid Y pounds.

    Mention that you deliberately paid in yuan, as your receipt shows, because you wanted Virgin Money to do the currency conversion.

    If Virgin Money don't play ball, take the matter to the Financial Ombudsman Service.
    • eco_warrior
    • By eco_warrior 8th Aug 18, 12:37 PM
    • 100 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    eco_warrior
    Just to avoid future possible confusions: 4834 is duplicate transaction, 4846 is POI Currency conversion.
    Originally posted by Emily Joy

    It might still get referenced as that but disputes were re-categorised under 4834 and 4853 some time ago.

    4834 - POI Error (duplicate, incorrect currency, billed twice for same service)
    4853 - Cardholder disputes (goods not received, not as described etc)
    • Emily Joy
    • By Emily Joy 12th Aug 18, 9:47 PM
    • 150 Posts
    • 66 Thanks
    Emily Joy
    It might still get referenced as that but disputes were re-categorised under 4834 and 4853 some time ago.

    4834 - POI Error (duplicate, incorrect currency, billed twice for same service)
    4853 - Cardholder disputes (goods not received, not as described etc)
    Originally posted by eco_warrior
    The link above to MasterCard chargeback regulations from May 2018, and it seems different. However, it is from mastercard US. Do UK codes differ?


    I have eventually got back home to find out that Virgin Money didn't bother to reply. It has been over a month since I got in touch requesting a chargeback for the first time.
    Last edited by Emily Joy; 12-08-2018 at 9:54 PM.
    • Penelopa.Pitstop
    • By Penelopa.Pitstop 12th Aug 18, 10:01 PM
    • 327 Posts
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    Penelopa.Pitstop
    Ultimately I would say you're going to be lucky to dispute these charges, as ultimately it is your responsibility as the card holder to ensure you are using it correctly and you entered your PIN to denote that you approved the transaction, which includes the currency conversion method the store holder chose. If you had any concerns about the shopkeepers integrity, you should not have completed the transaction.
    Originally posted by Paul_DNAP
    It's not that obvious. There are places which don't give you a choice and they charge you in card currency. I had it at petrol station in Poland. I said that I want to pay in PLN Staff told me that terminal doesn't offer choice and I can't do anything about it. It's not like I could return petrol which was already in my car and resign from purchase. Had the same thing happened at different petrol station in supermarket. I wrote complaint and only thing they said, is that they agree, that I should have a choice, no refund of charges.

    I always say that I want to pay in PLN, yet there are places which don't give you choice and you can't resign from transaction and walk away. Chasing the owner of some non-chain petrol station for refund will be waste of time. I just remember to avoid it now.

    DCC charges are even more widespread in Europe now. Every cash machine is trying to convince you to choose conversion and some of them ask you this twice.
    Last edited by Penelopa.Pitstop; 13-08-2018 at 9:39 AM. Reason: Edited to change GBP to PLN.

    • Emily Joy
    • By Emily Joy 12th Aug 18, 10:40 PM
    • 150 Posts
    • 66 Thanks
    Emily Joy
    I always say that I want to pay in GBP, yet there are places which don't give you choice and you can't resign from transaction and walk away. Chasing the owner of some non-chain petrol station for refund will be waste of time. I just remember to avoid it now.
    Originally posted by Penelopa.Pitstop
    Designated travel cards which don't charge for transactions abroad mean to address this issue. My point is that it should be "what you see is what you get", if you enter your PIN authorizing amount in PLN and see PLN on your statement + foreign transaction fee, it's OK. If you authorize payment in GBP and see PLN in your statement (or vice versa) it's not acceptable.
    • eDicky
    • By eDicky 13th Aug 18, 12:43 AM
    • 3,693 Posts
    • 1,852 Thanks
    eDicky
    I always say that I want to pay in GBP, yet there are places which don't give you choice and you can't resign from transaction and walk away. Chasing the owner of some non-chain petrol station for refund will be waste of time. I just remember to avoid it now.

    DCC charges are even more widespread in Europe now. Every cash machine is trying to convince you to choose conversion and some of them ask you this twice.
    Originally posted by Penelopa.Pitstop
    If you want to avoid DCC you need to pay with your card in the local currency. If you try to pay in GBP you are asking for DCC - do you want every small trader to join in the scam..?
    • Penelopa.Pitstop
    • By Penelopa.Pitstop 13th Aug 18, 9:37 AM
    • 327 Posts
    • 127 Thanks
    Penelopa.Pitstop
    To claryfiy, my previous post should say, that I always want to pay in local currency, not GBP. I see where your answers came from. I edited the post now.

    I know what I'm doing, I have Nationwide card which I use everywhere. I was just saying, that it's impossible to avoid DCC in certain situation

    On petrol station nr1, they gave me terminal which had amount in GBP. I told them again that I want to pay in PLN. They said, that they can't change it on terminal, it was disabled by owner. So what I was supposed to do? No cash to pay that amount and you can't return petrol which is already in a car. How do you fight something like this? And to add insult to injury, on receipt there was statement that I was offered choice and I agreed to DCC. My bank statement showed amount in GBP, so I couldn't exactly claim refund of fx charges as they weren't charged by them. Chasing owner of single petrol station is rather waste of time, especially when you 1000 miles away. I contacted VISA to complain on the owner of terminal but it didn't really get ma anywhere.

    On second petrol station I paid in PLN, but after returning terminal, they must have chose GBP for me, withouth asking. It was booth style till, so you can't see what they do after taking terminal from you. Again, got receipt saing that I was given choice of currency.

    I always say I want to pay in local currency if terminal asks this. It's my mantra at every till.

    • Emily Joy
    • By Emily Joy 14th Aug 18, 12:29 AM
    • 150 Posts
    • 66 Thanks
    Emily Joy
    I know what I'm doing, I have Nationwide card which I use everywhere. I was just saying, that it's impossible to avoid DCC in certain situation.

    I always say I want to pay in local currency if terminal asks this. It's my mantra at every till.
    Originally posted by Penelopa.Pitstop
    My current plan is

    1. Write to the CC provider requesting a chargeback

    2. If they refuse, refer to (past) financial ombudsman decisions (available via Google)

    3. Get a final response and refer to financial ombudsman (this is going to cost CC provider more than refunding me the difference)
    • chattychappy
    • By chattychappy 14th Aug 18, 8:02 AM
    • 6,858 Posts
    • 3,722 Thanks
    chattychappy
    My current plan is

    1. Write to the CC provider requesting a chargeback

    2. If they refuse, refer to (past) financial ombudsman decisions (available via Google)

    3. Get a final response and refer to financial ombudsman (this is going to cost CC provider more than refunding me the difference)
    Originally posted by Emily Joy
    It isn't a matter of "requesting a chargeback". You are disputing the transaction as unauthorised (to the extent of the currency) - therefore they cannot hold you liable for it. Whether they chargeback or not is a matter for the CC and not your problem.
    • Emily Joy
    • By Emily Joy 14th Aug 18, 9:44 AM
    • 150 Posts
    • 66 Thanks
    Emily Joy
    It isn't a matter of "requesting a chargeback". You are disputing the transaction as unauthorised (to the extent of the currency) - therefore they cannot hold you liable for it. Whether they chargeback or not is a matter for the CC and not your problem.
    Originally posted by chattychappy

    In my experience it always helps to tell the other party what would you like them to do in order to put things right for you. If they agree that your suggestion is sensible, the matter will be resolved faster. Otherwise they are free to explain why they can't do what would you like them to do and to offer an alternative solution.
    • eDicky
    • By eDicky 14th Aug 18, 1:40 PM
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    • 1,852 Thanks
    eDicky
    In my experience it always helps to tell the other party what would you like them to do in order to put things right for you. If they agree that your suggestion is sensible, the matter will be resolved faster. Otherwise they are free to explain why they can't do what would you like them to do and to offer an alternative solution.
    Originally posted by Emily Joy
    That may be a good idea in general, but this is a complaint about DCC being imposed without choice. Card issuers usually just refund the difference themselves without bothering to charge back the merchant, unfortunately. So its probably best to stick to the main issue only, in the hope that Virgin staff can manage to understand it. You have seen already how ignorant they can be...
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