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  • FIRST POST
    • Brigidir
    • By Brigidir 11th Jul 18, 8:33 PM
    • 20Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Brigidir
    local "tick" card - is the debt enforceable?
    • #1
    • 11th Jul 18, 8:33 PM
    local "tick" card - is the debt enforceable? 11th Jul 18 at 8:33 PM
    My local off licence runs a tick scheme where he gives you a electronic card that you can use in their shop to buy things and pay 30 days later. you get an email with an invoice of what is owed and when by.

    i forgot to pay last months invoice due on 9th for 137 and the payments system wont let me so i went in the shop. the shopkeeper got someone on the phone i think it was the shop owner and he was quite rude and hostile. said to come back with the money in cash and that he has all my address and details - which i saw as quite intimidating.

    A friend of mine said i didnt sign anything under credit act or something therefore the debt isnt enforceable by law. After the way i was treated he said i shouldn't bother paying them in cash and demand to pay securely through the normal internet site.

    Im scared that if i don't pay it how they want me to then he might send collections people after me or make threats against me so want to check here if this type of debt is enforceable and whether i virtually agreed to credit when i started using their electronic tick card?

    thanks in advance
Page 3
    • Brigidir
    • By Brigidir 11th Jul 18, 10:49 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Brigidir
    A banks collections department will treat you like scum too. And to add insult to injury they'll charge you interest!

    It's a shame you can't just be honest and admit you were looking for a way to get out of paying your debts but whatever, do your own thing. You should hope that the rest of the community that is reliant on this interest free loan doesn't find out it was you who got the scheme shut down.
    Originally posted by boo_star
    i am reporting illegal activity. how the community feel about that is not of concern to moi here.
    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 11th Jul 18, 10:53 PM
    • 1,575 Posts
    • 922 Thanks
    boo_star
    one of the indicators is that they are hesitant on cash only rather than online. off the books so they can pocket it with no deductions. like i said it'll be a matter for HMRC to deal with. i trust they have the expertise to dig further and prosecute
    Originally posted by Brigidir
    It's the other way around, they're "hesitant" on you being allowed online access.

    If it was such the tax fiddle you think it is, don't you think they'd have done it all by cash?

    Although I have no idea how a shopkeeper taking cash for products they sell is a "fiddle."
    • Ergates
    • By Ergates 11th Jul 18, 10:53 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 72 Thanks
    Ergates
    one of the indicators is that they are hesitant on cash only rather than online. off the books so they can pocket it with no deductions. like i said it'll be a matter for HMRC to deal with. i trust they have the expertise to dig further and prosecute
    Originally posted by Brigidir
    Except they've been happily accepting online payments the whole time you've been in this scheme, and presumably continue to do so for everyone else still in the scheme. It's only *now* for this one payment that they're demanding cash. And they'd still have to make the deduction because the debt would still be listed in whatever online system they're using.

    So that doesn't really support your claim does it.
    • Ergates
    • By Ergates 11th Jul 18, 10:55 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 72 Thanks
    Ergates
    i am reporting illegal activity. how the community feel about that is not of concern to moi here.
    Originally posted by Brigidir
    No, you're quite clearly just seeking to justify not paying back a debt you owe. You probably came here expecting everyone to back you up and encourage you. Happy to disappoint.
    • Brigidir
    • By Brigidir 11th Jul 18, 10:57 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Brigidir
    No, you're quite clearly just seeking to justify not paying back a debt you owe. You probably came here expecting everyone to back you up and encourage you. Happy to disappoint.
    Originally posted by Ergates
    i dont need to justify myself on a forum lol if i didnt want to pay it back...guess what. i wouldn't pay it back. i certainly dont require your backing or approval on it.

    and i know they are fiddling. you are looking at it in black and white. i see color because they are dodgy,, need not i say one of the reasons why but it ends with s
    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 11th Jul 18, 10:59 PM
    • 1,575 Posts
    • 922 Thanks
    boo_star
    i dont need to justify myself on a forum lol if i didnt want to pay it back...guess what. i wouldn't pay it back. i certainly dont require your backing or approval on it.

    and i know they are fiddling. you are looking at it in black and white. i see color because they are dodgy,, need not i say one of the reasons why but it ends with s
    Originally posted by Brigidir
    Where's you evidence?
    • Ergates
    • By Ergates 11th Jul 18, 11:10 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 72 Thanks
    Ergates
    i dont need to justify myself on a forum lol if i didnt want to pay it back...guess what. i wouldn't pay it back. i certainly dont require your backing or approval on it.

    and i know they are fiddling. you are looking at it in black and white. i see color because they are dodgy,, need not i say one of the reasons why but it ends with s
    Originally posted by Brigidir
    They're dodgy but you were perfectly happy to deal with them until now, which means you've been knowingly going along with their [alleged] tax evasion schemes.

    Also, clearly you do need to say more, lots and lots of words end in s.
    • Brigidir
    • By Brigidir 11th Jul 18, 11:26 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Brigidir
    They're dodgy but you were perfectly happy to deal with them until now, which means you've been knowingly going along with their [alleged] tax evasion schemes.

    Also, clearly you do need to say more, lots and lots of words end in s.
    Originally posted by Ergates
    its not an offence on my end they're the ones breaking the law. whether i willingly used their services or not.
    • Ergates
    • By Ergates 11th Jul 18, 11:31 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 72 Thanks
    Ergates
    its not an offence on my end they're the ones breaking the law. whether i willingly used their services or not.
    Originally posted by Brigidir
    Arguably it *is* an offence - even if it is one that is pretty much impossible to prove. However, what it does mean is that any moral high-ground you're attempting to claim with regards to their alleged illegal behaviour is clearly utterly false, because you were quite happy to go along with it whilst it was convenient to you.

    You clearly don't have a problem with people evading tax when it suits you and you're just talking about siccing the HMRC on them out of spite.
    • Sncjw
    • By Sncjw 12th Jul 18, 7:44 AM
    • 1,863 Posts
    • 1,100 Thanks
    Sncjw
    Its theft. You haven!!!8217;t paid for the goods
    • bigisi
    • By bigisi 12th Jul 18, 8:42 AM
    • 278 Posts
    • 494 Thanks
    bigisi
    Chavs gonna chav.
    • shiny76
    • By shiny76 12th Jul 18, 9:44 AM
    • 432 Posts
    • 462 Thanks
    shiny76
    i dont need to justify myself on a forum lol if i didnt want to pay it back...guess what. i wouldn't pay it back. i certainly dont require your backing or approval on it.
    Originally posted by Brigidir
    But you did post here seeking reassurance that there could be no legal repercussions so you'd (presumably) already made your mind up about how you wanted to proceed.

    You've still not mentioned what site is used to process this credit/payment arrangement. I'm genuinely interested.
    • radoslaff
    • By radoslaff 12th Jul 18, 10:11 AM
    • 115 Posts
    • 39 Thanks
    radoslaff
    This is all a big bulls...t. So they are offering you an interest free credit which you clearly don't want to pay back and you are trying to make up excuses for your theft. That is really very very nice. Whether they are regulated or not is totally irrelevant to you because they are not charging you interest so they don't make any profit directly from lending you this money. And comparing them to the loan sharks that charge +300% interest a year is simply pathetic. When you decided to use their money for a month did you tell them that you would only if they spoke very nicely and politely? I doubt it. It's very simple. You have a financial agreement and you keep it. Whether it's written or oral is irrelevant. You feel they were rude, you return their card and never use their services again after you pay your debt. Everything else is a simple theft. Full stop.
    The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.
    • MrWB
    • By MrWB 12th Jul 18, 10:32 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    MrWB
    The first thing that needs to be established is if they are actually offering you credit... Or are they offering you invoice terms. Two very different things.

    From the way you've described the scheme, you use a csrd which tracks your purchases, and the costs of items when being invoiced either varies or there is a surcharge.

    It's illegal for surcharges to be added when you make a payment (eg by credit card, debit card, payment processor (eg PayPal, etc) and mobile phone-based payments)... However, I don't believe it's illegal for surcharges with regards to billing method.

    If you have invoice terms, then it means that no credit agreement is needed. You have agreed (formed a contract) to pay by using the scheme, and you have taken the goods. If you don't pay, then you could have recovery actions taken against you, and ultimately could end up with a CCJ and attachment of earnings.

    You've obvioulsy provided your details too, and have use of an online system --- there may have been electronic signatures taken when registering for that online system with more detailed information about the terms of use of the scheme.

    You have been asked to pay by cash. That doesn't prove any illegal activity at all, and the fact an online system is normally used means that HMRC are just likely to take it as it almost certainly is -- that is a shopkeepr sinks or swims on cashflow, and needs to be paid on the invoice, especially after offering invoice terms. He's asked for cash this time, because he knows you may never return to the shop and if you do constant promises of doing it later/on this date/when you get home may not materialise.

    Likewise, if he becomes known for "letting people off", then others may do the same thing and take advantage of him, running his business into the ground.

    You're not wanting to pay because he was rude to you. I'm not defending him being rude, but everyone has bad days, and you don't know his financial circumstances either. The law and your responsibilty does not change because someone talks to you in a way you don't like.

    Although common decency seems to become further and further removed from society, legally and technically none of us have the right to not be offended - and this is what this boils down to. You feel offended and you are using that to justify you effectively stealing from the shopkeeper.

    That's not right. Pay up what you owe. You say you're a person of principle - if you were, you would pay up. If you don't, and you stick to your guns as he goes through recovery proceedings then you could end up with a CCJ and it would be for what you owe now, plus interest (which can be charged on late invoices), plus recovery costs.

    If you want to stick to principles because he was rude to you, fair enough - never shop there again.

    Of course, I realise that there may be other circumstances at play - like if you're in a position where you can't afford to pay it all now.If this is the case, rather than letting the situation get worse, go and speak to him and explain the situation and offer to pay in installments and see if he'll be willing to help you. If he agrees, great. If he doesn't and it gets to court at least you can show that you tried to resolve the situation.
    • societys child
    • By societys child 12th Jul 18, 10:54 AM
    • 5,236 Posts
    • 5,795 Thanks
    societys child
    if i spoke to them like that i wouldnt blame them. so yes i would write it off. i live on principal and they shouldnt be giving credit to people on a whim and then treat them like dirt
    Originally posted by Brigidir
    Nah, sounds more like you live on other peoples money . . .
    Last edited by societys child; 12-07-2018 at 11:42 AM.

    • Brigidir
    • By Brigidir 12th Jul 18, 11:55 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Brigidir
    The first thing that needs to be established is if they are actually offering you credit... Or are they offering you invoice terms. Two very different things.

    From the way you've described the scheme, you use a csrd which tracks your purchases, and the costs of items when being invoiced either varies or there is a surcharge.

    It's illegal for surcharges to be added when you make a payment (eg by credit card, debit card, payment processor (eg PayPal, etc) and mobile phone-based payments)... However, I don't believe it's illegal for surcharges with regards to billing method.

    If you have invoice terms, then it means that no credit agreement is needed. You have agreed (formed a contract) to pay by using the scheme, and you have taken the goods. If you don't pay, then you could have recovery actions taken against you, and ultimately could end up with a CCJ and attachment of earnings.

    You've obvioulsy provided your details too, and have use of an online system --- there may have been electronic signatures taken when registering for that online system with more detailed information about the terms of use of the scheme.

    You have been asked to pay by cash. That doesn't prove any illegal activity at all, and the fact an online system is normally used means that HMRC are just likely to take it as it almost certainly is -- that is a shopkeepr sinks or swims on cashflow, and needs to be paid on the invoice, especially after offering invoice terms. He's asked for cash this time, because he knows you may never return to the shop and if you do constant promises of doing it later/on this date/when you get home may not materialise.

    Likewise, if he becomes known for "letting people off", then others may do the same thing and take advantage of him, running his business into the ground.

    You're not wanting to pay because he was rude to you. I'm not defending him being rude, but everyone has bad days, and you don't know his financial circumstances either. The law and your responsibilty does not change because someone talks to you in a way you don't like.

    Although common decency seems to become further and further removed from society, legally and technically none of us have the right to not be offended - and this is what this boils down to. You feel offended and you are using that to justify you effectively stealing from the shopkeeper.

    That's not right. Pay up what you owe. You say you're a person of principle - if you were, you would pay up. If you don't, and you stick to your guns as he goes through recovery proceedings then you could end up with a CCJ and it would be for what you owe now, plus interest (which can be charged on late invoices), plus recovery costs.

    If you want to stick to principles because he was rude to you, fair enough - never shop there again.

    Of course, I realise that there may be other circumstances at play - like if you're in a position where you can't afford to pay it all now.If this is the case, rather than letting the situation get worse, go and speak to him and explain the situation and offer to pay in installments and see if he'll be willing to help you. If he agrees, great. If he doesn't and it gets to court at least you can show that you tried to resolve the situation.
    Originally posted by MrWB
    after seeing your post -- ive gone and paid it in full this morning and handed the card back to the keeper

    its funny that all the so-called STAR established members of the forum have done nothing but try an score points against me here and thanking each others posts like the three musketeers. you provided good facts but edged your opinion in respectfully. fair play to you. keep doing what your doing. we might end up with a member with 5 stars who actually represents what they mean to possesses
    Last edited by Brigidir; 12-07-2018 at 12:05 PM.
    • jimbo26
    • By jimbo26 12th Jul 18, 12:06 PM
    • 444 Posts
    • 215 Thanks
    jimbo26
    Most sensible decison
    • bertiewhite
    • By bertiewhite 12th Jul 18, 1:13 PM
    • 1,181 Posts
    • 1,296 Thanks
    bertiewhite
    Off license - booze - tick.

    It conjures all sorts of images up in my head.
    • T-G-C
    • By T-G-C 12th Jul 18, 2:12 PM
    • 282 Posts
    • 105 Thanks
    T-G-C
    I think we have all got a bit over excited here. The OP seems to have a strange agreement with their local convenience store, one which I have never come across before.

    You can complain, but it doesn't sound like a tax evasion scheme to me. If the invoice was left unpaid, the issuer has the right to request payment in whichever fashion, provided it is legal tender. Exchanging in cash doesn't automatically mean laundering; evasion or other illegitimate practice.

    I am pleased to learn that the debt has been paid in full, however this should have been done in the first place. You cannot blame others for the hostility, as this sort of thing doesn't go well with people here, this is a money saving forum, not a haven for writing off debt or avoiding commitments.
    All advice provided is intended for guidance purposes only. For specialized debt advice, please contact either National Debtline or StepChange.
    • zx81
    • By zx81 12th Jul 18, 3:09 PM
    • 17,794 Posts
    • 18,921 Thanks
    zx81
    keep doing what your doing.
    Originally posted by Brigidir
    You can count on it.

    Though it should have been 'you're'.

    No charge for that advice. Not even on 'tick'.
    -
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