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    • mljdamvp
    • By mljdamvp 11th Jul 18, 11:49 AM
    • 5Posts
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    mljdamvp
    Buying a property before it goes on the market
    • #1
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:49 AM
    Buying a property before it goes on the market 11th Jul 18 at 11:49 AM
    Hello,
    I am aware that a property nearby where i live will be going on the market soon, as the old lady who lived at the property has gone into a care home, her family has been at the property clearing it out and also had the local estate agent around taking photos etc so i'm expecting the house to go on the market very soon.
    I am interested in buying the property as it has a far larger garden than my current property, but want to do so before it goes on sale through the estate agent and think the family may be interested in doing it this way as it will say them the estate agent fees.
    Has anyone done this before and can offer advice on how i approach the family to let them no that i'm interested?
    Cheers
    Mike
Page 1
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 11th Jul 18, 11:53 AM
    • 18,386 Posts
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    AdrianC
    • #2
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:53 AM
    • #2
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:53 AM
    If the agent's already preparing details, then I think you might be too late to work around them. Why do you want to, anyway? You don't pay the EA's fees, the vendor does. The agent will already have given a valuation, so that's likely the price you're looking at however you get there.

    B'sides, the agent may already have contacted potential buyers from their list.

    But all you need to do is talk to the family. If they're there, button-hole them. If they're not, leave a note. Chances are they've got postal redirection in place, so write to them at the house address.
    • zagubov
    • By zagubov 11th Jul 18, 11:55 AM
    • 15,509 Posts
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    zagubov
    • #3
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:55 AM
    • #3
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:55 AM
    Hello,
    I am aware that a property nearby where i live will be going on the market soon, as the old lady who lived at the property has gone into a care home, her family has been at the property clearing it out and also had the local estate agent around taking photos etc so i'm expecting the house to go on the market very soon.
    I am interested in buying the property as it has a far larger garden than my current property, but want to do so before it goes on sale through the estate agent and think the family may be interested in doing it this way as it will say them the estate agent fees.
    Has anyone done this before and can offer advice on how i approach the family to let them no that i'm interested?
    Cheers
    Mike
    Originally posted by mljdamvp
    Is there a possibility the sale is being used to finance the cost of the old lady's care?

    I'm not sure and others will be along to advise, but I'm wondering if the council may require the sale to be through an estate agent to ensure that the full market price is obtained and there's no chance the property is being sold suspiciously cheaply to a relative or friend, for a range of reasons.
    There is no honour to be had in not knowing a thing that can be known - Danny Baker
    • mljdamvp
    • By mljdamvp 11th Jul 18, 12:00 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    mljdamvp
    • #4
    • 11th Jul 18, 12:00 PM
    Thanks for the advice
    • #4
    • 11th Jul 18, 12:00 PM
    Thank you for your advice, im hoping to get a good deal on the property as i understand from the neighbour of the old lady that the family are keen to sell quickly. Im going to approach them and hopefully get in before they put it on the market (fingers crossed).
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 11th Jul 18, 12:02 PM
    • 22,499 Posts
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    lisyloo
    • #5
    • 11th Jul 18, 12:02 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Jul 18, 12:02 PM
    Why do you want to, anyway? You don't pay the EA's fees, the vendor does.

    I am on the other side of the sale (not this particular one).
    My MIL is in a nursing home.
    I would split the difference for a private sale e.g. 50/50.


    but I'm wondering if the council may require the sale to be through an estate agent to ensure that the full market price is obtained and there's no chance the property is being sold suspiciously cheaply to a relative or friend, for a range of reasons.

    I don't think a LA would be involved at this point if it's a private sale.
    It's possible the family may want to be able to prove that they sold at market rate though.


    As someone on the other side it's not something that would concern me.
    The sale of the property will last for about 7 years of nursing care and that's about 3 times as long as most residents last.
    Plus you can easily get historic sale prices from similar properties.
    Using an estate agent doesn't prove the deal isn't dodgy anyway !!
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 11th Jul 18, 12:03 PM
    • 22,499 Posts
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    lisyloo
    • #6
    • 11th Jul 18, 12:03 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Jul 18, 12:03 PM
    Thank you for your advice, im hoping to get a good deal on the property as i understand from the neighbour of the old lady that the family are keen to sell quickly. Im going to approach them and hopefully get in before they put it on the market (fingers crossed).
    Originally posted by mljdamvp

    Do it and ask them if they'll split the difference on the estate agent fees.
    Don't see why they wouldn't be happy with that.
    It's a win-win.
    • westernpromise
    • By westernpromise 11th Jul 18, 12:52 PM
    • 4,263 Posts
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    westernpromise
    • #7
    • 11th Jul 18, 12:52 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Jul 18, 12:52 PM
    Of course the risk to the seller is that you save the agents' fees (gain: c. 2% of price) but sell to a lower bidder than the agent would have found (loss: < 20% of price), so it could be a very expensive way to save money.
    Buying a house, if you believe the market has a way to fall, or if you are paying sill asking prices ( like some sheeple ) or if you are buying in London, is now a massive financial gamble!!!!! - June 8, 2012 by TheCountOfNowhere
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 11th Jul 18, 1:05 PM
    • 22,499 Posts
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    lisyloo
    • #8
    • 11th Jul 18, 1:05 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Jul 18, 1:05 PM
    Of course the risk to the seller is that you save the agents' fees (gain: c. 2% of price) but sell to a lower bidder than the agent would have found (loss: < 20% of price), so it could be a very expensive way to save money.
    Originally posted by westernpromise

    Having read some of your posts, I am suprised that you think an estate agent could add 20% of value :-)


    In our case (blocks of similar retirement flats) the market value is pretty predictable and flats sell frequently as people die/go into care.


    I do find it hard to believe an agent could add 20%.
    I would certainly get valuations first, but I guess there is the risk of taking an easy offer and not testing the market properly.


    If you are using an estate agent? Can you accept a private sale if it's genuinely private? or do their contracts insist you pay?


    In our case the flats have a managment company so it's not uncommon for people to call the management company (big phone number on the building) if they want to buy a flat there.
    • Thrugelmir
    • By Thrugelmir 11th Jul 18, 1:10 PM
    • 59,809 Posts
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    Thrugelmir
    • #9
    • 11th Jul 18, 1:10 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Jul 18, 1:10 PM
    Using an estate agent doesn't prove the deal isn't dodgy anyway !!
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    EA will have a record of interest expressed, viewings and offers. Be obvious if underhand tactics are employed.
    Financial disasters happen when the last person who can remember what went wrong last time has left the building.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 11th Jul 18, 1:21 PM
    • 22,499 Posts
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    lisyloo
    EA will have a record of interest expressed, viewings and offers. Be obvious if underhand tactics are employed.
    Originally posted by Thrugelmir

    I can get professional valuations and look at historical sale prices.


    I remember my SIL getting a professional valuation for her divorce (one that was paid for and documented not a finger-in-the-air from an estate agent).
    Would this not be taken as evidence just as it would be for a divorce?


    Do you really believe an estate agent can add value?
    exceeding their fee?


    genuinely interested for my future sale
    Last edited by lisyloo; 11-07-2018 at 1:34 PM.
    • westernpromise
    • By westernpromise 11th Jul 18, 4:12 PM
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    westernpromise
    To turn the question around, the aspiring bidder here clearly thinks EAs add value, because he's very keen for it not to gio through an agent who might find a higher bid than his own.

    An EA should be able to get you a higher price, yes, and perhaps as much as 20%.

    One thing I have noticed recently is that complete wrecks seem to be as sought after as newly renovated places. If you didn't realise that, you might think that grandma's desperately tired, in-need-of-gutting semi needs to be discounted to sell, in order to reflect the cost of gutting it, when it actually doesn't.

    By way of example here's a house local to me. As I noted, it has an outside loo, no room upstairs for more than one bathroom, a 9' by 9' kitchen, and it hasn't changed hands in 92 years. This probably means it hasn't been modernised in 92 years either, hence the outside loo.
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3403965&page=1212#24224
    It's gone under offer - for 1.25 million - within two weeks, which is 50k over the asking price.

    Given that it needs everything doing to it, if you were the seller, you might have thought Well, I'll never get 1.25 million...I'll flog it to the nice direct buyer at 1.1 million instead, and save myself 20k in agency fees. If you had - you'd actually have lost yourself 130k.

    Nothing stops the vendor here from instructing an agent and saying Right, get me a bid that is higher net of your fee than this one I've already got, and I'll take your bid.
    Buying a house, if you believe the market has a way to fall, or if you are paying sill asking prices ( like some sheeple ) or if you are buying in London, is now a massive financial gamble!!!!! - June 8, 2012 by TheCountOfNowhere
    • eddddy
    • By eddddy 11th Jul 18, 5:10 PM
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    eddddy
    It depends how 'business-like' the seller is.

    If I were the seller, I would listen to your offer, then tell the EA that I needed offers at least 1.5% higher than your offer (assuming the EA's fee is 1.5%).

    If the EA got a higher offer, I'd take it. If not, I'd go with your offer.


    (Again, if I were the seller, I'd make sure the EA contract was 'sole agency' or similar, so no fees are payable for a 'private buyer'.)
    • datlex
    • By datlex 11th Jul 18, 5:34 PM
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    datlex
    I have just bought a property that was in similar situation to yours. The property has been sold to pay an old lady's car home fees. It wasn't sold by the old lady's family but by the local council. If the lady had not given her family power of attorney they may have chosen to let the local council handle her affairs.
    • Slithery
    • By Slithery 11th Jul 18, 6:24 PM
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    Slithery
    If the family of the owner have POA then they are legally obliged to get the best price possible, this means putting it on the open market.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 12th Jul 18, 9:59 AM
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    lisyloo
    If the lady had not given her family power of attorney they may have chosen to let the local council handle her affairs.
    Well personally I'd choose deputyship over the LA (which Im doing right now).

    Thanks all for your thoughts, very pertinent to me as I've applied for deputyship.
    It will be going on the open market.



    It's actually highly unlikely that someone will outlive the cost of their private care fees (after pension income, attendance allowance and NHS contribution is taken into account).
    My MIL has a low-value flat worth around 170K and her care fees will be about 20K per year after 450 income per week is take into account. It's highly unlikely she'll outlive the capital (9 years) and that's someone with a low value property and no private pension, just state benefits/entitlements.


    If one gets a private higher offer, are estate agent fees usually payable?

    EDIT: Depends on whether it's sole agency or sole selling.



    I will be mindful that we get the former because being a managed block of flats it's entirely possible that someone who wants to live there calls the management company.
    Last edited by lisyloo; 12-07-2018 at 10:08 AM.
    • westernpromise
    • By westernpromise 12th Jul 18, 12:09 PM
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    westernpromise
    Right, but if such a neighbour-type of buyer only knew the property was for sale because the EA had put a sign outside, the agent would still claim the agency fee. You'd need to show that they approached you having not heard about it through anything the agent had done. That they have your contact details would help, of course. If it's physically doable there may be mileage in leafleting the other flats yourself before signing, to establish that you rather than they drew the property to the neighbours' attention.
    Buying a house, if you believe the market has a way to fall, or if you are paying sill asking prices ( like some sheeple ) or if you are buying in London, is now a massive financial gamble!!!!! - June 8, 2012 by TheCountOfNowhere
    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 12th Jul 18, 12:17 PM
    • 4,868 Posts
    • 7,236 Thanks
    Cakeguts
    To turn the question around, the aspiring bidder here clearly thinks EAs add value, because he's very keen for it not to gio through an agent who might find a higher bid than his own.

    An EA should be able to get you a higher price, yes, and perhaps as much as 20%.

    One thing I have noticed recently is that complete wrecks seem to be as sought after as newly renovated places. If you didn't realise that, you might think that grandma's desperately tired, in-need-of-gutting semi needs to be discounted to sell, in order to reflect the cost of gutting it, when it actually doesn't.

    By way of example here's a house local to me. As I noted, it has an outside loo, no room upstairs for more than one bathroom, a 9' by 9' kitchen, and it hasn't changed hands in 92 years. This probably means it hasn't been modernised in 92 years either, hence the outside loo.
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3403965&page=1212#24224
    It's gone under offer - for 1.25 million - within two weeks, which is 50k over the asking price.

    Given that it needs everything doing to it, if you were the seller, you might have thought Well, I'll never get 1.25 million...I'll flog it to the nice direct buyer at 1.1 million instead, and save myself 20k in agency fees. If you had - you'd actually have lost yourself 130k.

    Nothing stops the vendor here from instructing an agent and saying Right, get me a bid that is higher net of your fee than this one I've already got, and I'll take your bid.
    Originally posted by westernpromise

    The pricing for that house goes like this. 250k for the house and 1million for the location that it is in. This is a prime example of how a location can either increase or reduce the value of a house. So many people just don't get this.
    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 12th Jul 18, 12:19 PM
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    Cakeguts
    If the agent has been round taking details they may also have given some sort of valuation. If that valuation is higher than what you want to pay you won't get it if you offer low.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 12th Jul 18, 12:34 PM
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    lisyloo
    In our case it looks like the managing agent (firstport) has an estate agent brand (retirement homesearch). So anyone that saw the sign would not be private but via the "incumbent estate agent" related to the managing agent.


    I don't think we are obliged to use them, but as they have an on-site manager and the flat is empty it has significant advantages (I thought there was a reason she was keen to help).
    • westernpromise
    • By westernpromise 12th Jul 18, 12:41 PM
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    westernpromise
    The pricing for that house goes like this. 250k for the house and 1million for the location that it is in. This is a prime example of how a location can either increase or reduce the value of a house. So many people just don't get this.
    Originally posted by Cakeguts
    Sure. The significance here is that a naive seller might agree to a direct sale without any marketing, thinking the property's value given its condition is obviously low. If they worked out the composition of the value as you have, they might realise that the house's actual condition is almost incidental to the value, do more to find out what that value actually is, and sell it for a six-figure sum beyond their initial expectation.
    Buying a house, if you believe the market has a way to fall, or if you are paying sill asking prices ( like some sheeple ) or if you are buying in London, is now a massive financial gamble!!!!! - June 8, 2012 by TheCountOfNowhere
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