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    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 11th Jul 18, 10:40 AM
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    MercilessKiller
    Parking Ticket in My Spot - Appeal Rejected - P4Parking
    • #1
    • 11th Jul 18, 10:40 AM
    Parking Ticket in My Spot - Appeal Rejected - P4Parking 11th Jul 18 at 10:40 AM
    Hi All

    I live in a development in London and own both the property and the parking spot allocated. I have a valid permit, which is registered to my car & numberplate. I was told when moving in that by registering my numberplate, if a ticket was given it can be rescinded. I can't find any documented evidence of that.

    My car was in an accident. Following that, the permit was no longer stuck to the windscreen. Unfortunately, with the lovely hot weather my air con blew the permit onto the car seat and guess what? I got a ticket. 3 years of living at the property with car there every night but there we go.

    I filed an appeal with P4Parking confirming my permit details, photographic evidence, the registered numberplate and what I was told when moving in. I was sent a letter confirming my appeal was denied as the signs around the development clearly say a permit MUST be visible at all times.

    I find this crazy as I own the spot (though I guess technically the freeholder does seeing as everything around london is leasehold). But even so - what are my rights here? Could they really take me to court due to breaking contract of parking in my own registered spot? Their system should clearly have my number plate registered for that spot (which was the whole point of registering the number plate).

    I guess the odd thing is why would ANYONE register their numberplate on the permit if it literally makes no difference? The system is there for a reason - surely.

    Would love some advice on what to do or whether I just need to suck it up and pay the 60 (I have 14 more days to pay that before it goes up to 100).

    Also, one thing to note, my car parking space is underground in a secure part of the development and not on the public road where other spaces are.

    FYI I am now planning on filing a Popla appeal but also wanted to get thoughts.

    Thank you!
    Last edited by MercilessKiller; 16-07-2018 at 2:15 PM.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
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Page 5
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 20th Jul 18, 9:30 AM
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    twhitehousescat
    I added to my post above "did p4 get your details from dvla , or did you appeal first" , this would also apply to others who received tickets

    there is a good chance that they have applied to the DVLA falsely
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Castle
    • By Castle 20th Jul 18, 9:34 AM
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    Castle
    ". In his mind, the contract with P4Parking does state that management of the contract is to be carried out by BRAM (as the agent) - now HML Group - so it must come from then.
    Originally posted by MercilessKiller
    So how did the contract between BRAM and P4Parking get transferred to HML group?
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 20th Jul 18, 9:38 AM
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    MercilessKiller
    1) I appealed to P4Parking first - I haven't receive an NTK through the post yet and also only registered as a Keeper on the appeal.

    2) Apparently we would have notified them that HML Group are the new management company. I havent confirmed this.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 20th Jul 18, 10:31 AM
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    nosferatu1001
    Thats not the same question, at all
    WHen the new company took over, any existing contracts woudl not automatcially transfer - depending on clause they would have to be either novated across to the new name, or renegotiated.
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 20th Jul 18, 10:35 AM
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    MercilessKiller
    Thats not the same question, at all
    WHen the new company took over, any existing contracts woudl not automatcially transfer - depending on clause they would have to be either novated across to the new name, or renegotiated.
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    Right but my point is I don't know the answer and neither does the Director for sure. He said that as the contract is with the "Client" (which is NSQ Residents Management Company) then the contract would still be valid even with a change in Management Company.

    However, I do question the validity of the contract and that would be another argument if this thing did progress. I'm hoping we don't get that far at this point..
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 20th Jul 18, 5:26 PM
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    MercilessKiller
    Another quick update - I received a response from one of the heads at HML Group who has confirmed he's reviewing the situation (it was new to him). He replied to me very quickly asking me to confirm a few more details (including providing the P4Contract I was already sent by one of his colleagues interestingly).

    They've confirmed they will come back to me next week with next steps and put an informal note wishing me a good weekend.

    Am I right to be getting excited? It feels like suddenly someone here is on my side.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 20th Jul 18, 6:12 PM
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    NeilCr
    Right but my point is I don't know the answer and neither does the Director for sure. He said that as the contract is with the "Client" (which is NSQ Residents Management Company) then the contract would still be valid even with a change in Management Company.

    However, I do question the validity of the contract and that would be another argument if this thing did progress. I'm hoping we don't get that far at this point..
    Originally posted by MercilessKiller
    I'd have thought he was right if the contract is between P4Parking and NSQRMC.

    HML and BRAM are Managing Agents/Property Managers and work for NSQRMC. I think it's a bit confusing calling them all Management Companies.
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 20th Jul 18, 8:02 PM
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    MercilessKiller
    I'd have thought he was right if the contract is between P4Parking and NSQRMC.

    HML and BRAM are Managing Agents/Property Managers and work for NSQRMC. I think it's a bit confusing calling them all Management Companies.
    Originally posted by NeilCr
    While I agree, the P4Parking contract term for BRAM is "Management Company".
    I must admit, this whole thing has been new and confusing to me personally too so trying to get my head around it all. Managing Agent does sound right.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
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    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Jul 18, 9:39 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Just to add to be careful what you wish for - I would NOT push for P4Parking to be kicked out if the MA insist on another scum firm taking their place.

    You have there a firm who don't litigate, and with a clause that works in your favour. And they are BPA so POPLA applies, and as you've been told (and we know) P4Parking are dead easy to beat at POPLA. So if you must have a PPC scumbag, they are among the easier scumbags to beat!

    Your alternative to that, if they are kicked out, is the likes of:

    VCS
    Link Parking
    UKPC
    UKCPM

    ...all of whom typically infest residential car parks, and who are far nastier a prospect, and litigious and the majority with no POPLA (only UKPC and I'd rather have P4Parking then them, any day).
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 21st Jul 18, 9:07 AM
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    The Deep
    Indeed, UKPC have been caught out several times doctoring photographs.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11858473/Parking-firm-UKPC-admits-faking-tickets-to-fine-drivers.html
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 23rd Jul 18, 1:56 PM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    It won't catch you out, imo, if you didn't "correctly" lodge your VRM.
    I doubt they told you how to register it, just that you should register it. So you sensibly went along to the front desk, your only point of contact, and gave it to them. In return you got a permit. So you were entitled to assume that you had done all required of you - they had your VRM, they issued a permit with the VRM on it. Nothing to suggest that you needed to do anything else and they didn't say that you should do anything in addition to or instead of what you'd already done. If they didn't pass on your VRM to the powers that be, that's their lookout not yours.


    It's really annoying that you've been banging your head against a brick wall dealing with some silly front office person who knows nothing and hasn't even been passing the information on to a person who could have helped you. Make sure Mr Big Cheese knows that this has created a lot of extra work for you and that it just isn't right or fair, they owe a duty to manage the estate in the best interests of the freeholder and the leaseholders, whilst maintaining the residents' right to quiet enjoyment of their properties.


    They haven't got a leg to stand on with that clause and my guess is that they now realise that.


    CM is right. You want to keep P4 and that contract, so keep it up your sleeve about whether the transfer of the contract from the original MC to the new one is valid. it probably isn't. It sounds unlikely that they would have been that organised to have novated their various contracts.


    I'd copy that contract, highlight the smoking gun clause and then do a short note to all residents about how they can defeat PCNs issued to their vehicles parked in their own spaces by simply insisting on their cancellation, the contact name and number for them to do so, and then deliver them to all your neighbours. I'd never personally recommend wallpaper pasting these notes onto P4's signs, because there may be a criminal offence there somewhere, although I could see the temptation....


    I'd also make sure that your point of contact (can't remember the different entities names off the top of my head) understands the meaning of that clause and the process for getting similar PCNs cancelled so that next time one of the residents is in your shoes it gets dealt with quickly and properly. You've had to do a lot of work and it just isn't right. Many others in your shoes would have fallen at a hurdle way further back than the one you're jumping now.


    When this is over, ask about opting out in respect of your space. Then put a sign up on the wall in front of your car stating that you have opted out and nobody is to set foot on your space or to touch your car without your express permission and to do so in the absence of such permission is a TRESPASS and you will have no hesitation in enforcing your rights.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 24th Jul 18, 2:27 PM
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    MercilessKiller
    Hi All

    Response from the Management Company:
    Hi Josh,



    I wrote to P4Parking yesterday requesting they cancel the ticket, to which I am waiting for their response.



    The ball is now in their court and should they not respond before the 21 day deadline, this should not jeopardise the position as they are now on notice.



    I shall come back to you once I have their response.



    Kind regards

    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 24th Jul 18, 3:02 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    I hate the term "request"
    It suggests the agent has a choice
    It should be "require"
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 24th Jul 18, 4:43 PM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    Fingers crossed, but it does look like you've succeeded here. But only because you spent hours of your time researching this and going at it like a terrier, and not being fobbed off by front office staff who not only told you the wrong thing, but didn't even refer you further up the chain. Disgraceful. They're supposed to be managing the estate for the residents, not pursuing any other agenda.


    Now for letting other residents know about their right to insist on cancellation of charges.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 24th Jul 18, 4:46 PM
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    MercilessKiller
    Fingers crossed, but it does look like you've succeeded here. But only because you spent hours of your time researching this and going at it like a terrier, and not being fobbed off by front office staff who not only told you the wrong thing, but didn't even refer you further up the chain. Disgraceful. They're supposed to be managing the estate for the residents, not pursuing any other agenda.


    Now for letting other residents know about their right to insist on cancellation of charges.
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    Once I have confirmation it's been cancelled, I'll send a more damning email to them asking them to explain their own mistakes in dismissing me when it's clear multiple legal rights were broken. But while they're on my side, I figured it's worth waiting in case P4Parking push back on them too!
    Last edited by MercilessKiller; 25-07-2018 at 9:32 AM.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 8th Aug 18, 12:03 PM
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    MercilessKiller
    Hi All

    An interesting few days. Firstly - a couple of days ago, P4Parking responded to my POPLA appeal with their evidence. There was a lot - it was clear they planned on pursuing this. I replied to that with my arguments as detailed in this thread (some of it repetition from the original appeal but in relation to their evidence).

    I then emailed HML Group once more, saying it's clear that their instruction to rescind the parking ticket was ignored. HML Group instantly replied saying they had no response and will chase P4Parking with urgency.

    Then today, I received this:

    Dear MercilessKiller



    Thank you for submitting your parking charge Appeal to POPLA.



    An Appeal has been opened with the reference [redacted].



    P4 Parking have told us they do not wish to contest the Appeal. This means that your Appeal is successful and you do not need to pay the parking charge.



    Yours sincerely



    POPLA Team
    HML Group also emailed me confirming that P4Parking had responded to them with the below:

    Hi Merciless,



    Following correspondence with P4Parking today, I!!!8217;m pleased to advise they have rescinded the ticket; their response was as follows:



    The parking charge notice for vehicle registration number [Numberplate], PCN reference number: [pcnnumber] has been rescinded and POPLA has been instructed to close the matter therefore no further actions will be taken against the ticket.



    I trust this now concludes the matter and you are happy with the outcome.



    Kind regards
    WE WON!!!!

    Hurrah.

    I'm doing 2 things now:
    1) Replying to HML Group to find out why 3 members of staff fobbed me off when clearly I abided by all the rules. And what they're going to do to stop this from escalating in the future

    2) Considering whether I have any right to take further action AGAINST P4Parking for trespass/damages of giving me a ticket when they shouldn't have done, and then failing to accept my appeals causing me a lot of time and effort to respond/fight. Could I take them to small claims court for damages of time defending myself potentially?

    Either way - Thank you to everyone for your advice here. I absolutely could not have done this without you all.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 8th Aug 18, 12:27 PM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    You could sue them for damages for trespass. But I'm not sure the effort:benefit ratio is in your favour!


    There may also be a DPA damages claim there for them wrongly obtaining and processing your data because they had your VRM and were therefore obliged under that clause to cancel your charge, meaning that they should never have obtained your data/processed it (not sure if they obtained your data at all, did they get it from DVLA or did they get it from you, by you appealing before you'd had any contact from them - I haven't read back over the whole thread so not sure).


    With DPA claims you need to prove distress. With trespass you can include inconvenience/time spent.


    Personally, unless you are ready for a whole load of work in pursuing a claim, I'd focus on communicating to the rest of the residents that golden nugget clause in the contract which means that if they've provided their VRM (and updated it if it ever changes) then any charges issued to them should be cancelled. I'd also focus, if you think this is a good idea, on pressurising the MA to introduce a procedure for formally opting out of the permit scheme. You're not obliged to display a permit and you don't want to have to go through this every time your permit falls off or slips down on the dashboard. Others will jump on here now and say that it isn't for the MA to introduce a procedure, you are not obliged to display a permit because you already have the parking rights. However, thinking pragmatically, it would be a hell of a lot easier if you cajole the MA into introducing something rather than firing on all cylinders. The all cylinders option is of course to write to them (MA and PPC) to tell them that you will NOT be displaying a permit, because you are NOT obliged to, you have pre-existing parking rights that they are not permitted to interfere with, that any interference is a breach of your right to quiet enjoyment, they must instruct their operatives not to issue any charges to any vehicle parked in your space and that any attempt by them to do so will be a trespass and you will have no hesitation in issuing a claim against them for damages and an injunction.


    I think your energies are better aimed at resolving future problems. I base this conclusion on the assumption that you have better things to do with your time than score points, and your real aim is to avoid getting a pcn ever again. However, you might have the appetite and time to sue them and only you can decide that. You'll need to write them a detailed LBC which complies with the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (ie spells out the claim in appropriate detail, the evidence you will rely on, and what redress you seek).


    hairray's thread contains precedent LBCs. You'll obviously need to adapt them, depending on what your lease says.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 8th Aug 18, 12:46 PM
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    MercilessKiller
    Makes sense - I'll focus my efforts more on communicating with residents. Thanks again for all your help. A good victory
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
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