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  • FIRST POST
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 11th Jul 18, 10:40 AM
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    MercilessKiller
    Parking Ticket in My Spot - Appeal Rejected - P4Parking
    • #1
    • 11th Jul 18, 10:40 AM
    Parking Ticket in My Spot - Appeal Rejected - P4Parking 11th Jul 18 at 10:40 AM
    Hi All

    I live in a development in London and own both the property and the parking spot allocated. I have a valid permit, which is registered to my car & numberplate. I was told when moving in that by registering my numberplate, if a ticket was given it can be rescinded. I can't find any documented evidence of that.

    My car was in an accident. Following that, the permit was no longer stuck to the windscreen. Unfortunately, with the lovely hot weather my air con blew the permit onto the car seat and guess what? I got a ticket. 3 years of living at the property with car there every night but there we go.

    I filed an appeal with P4Parking confirming my permit details, photographic evidence, the registered numberplate and what I was told when moving in. I was sent a letter confirming my appeal was denied as the signs around the development clearly say a permit MUST be visible at all times.

    I find this crazy as I own the spot (though I guess technically the freeholder does seeing as everything around london is leasehold). But even so - what are my rights here? Could they really take me to court due to breaking contract of parking in my own registered spot? Their system should clearly have my number plate registered for that spot (which was the whole point of registering the number plate).

    I guess the odd thing is why would ANYONE register their numberplate on the permit if it literally makes no difference? The system is there for a reason - surely.

    Would love some advice on what to do or whether I just need to suck it up and pay the 60 (I have 14 more days to pay that before it goes up to 100).

    Also, one thing to note, my car parking space is underground in a secure part of the development and not on the public road where other spaces are.

    FYI I am now planning on filing a Popla appeal but also wanted to get thoughts.

    Thank you!
    Last edited by MercilessKiller; 16-07-2018 at 2:15 PM.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
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Page 2
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jul 18, 9:21 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Have you now read the threads by hairray and Daniel san? No links, go find.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 12th Jul 18, 9:44 AM
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    MercilessKiller
    Hey Coupon - Yes been spending a lot of time reading it and up to about here:
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5588292&highlight=hairray&page=5# topofpage

    Interestingly enough, the situation is different and the same in the sense of the fact I did have a permit, but the point about the wording in the lease seems to be the interesting one.

    I have a 38 page lease so I'm in the process of reading through that word for word. The wording seems to be nearly identical to that of in the link above but I'll take some screenshots and upload shortly.

    The question here is once POPLA deny my appeal (I do regret sending that before coming here but there we go), do I go with constructing/submitting an LBC to them about tresspass, or do I just wait through the debt collector letters and see if it goes away?

    Interestingly enough, a friend in the development received a ticket. He ignored it and after a year, everything stopped. I'm wondering if by submitting an LBC and pushing things, it would make things worse for me.

    BUT - on the other side, I'm furious enough to want to make life difficult for them too. I'm in contact with our management company, who aren't the freeholders, but I'm making them aware of the situation here and the absurdity. They seem to defend P4Parking right now saying the signs are clear and obvious, so I'm pushing back on them saying that WE hire P4Parking to protect our rights as residents etc.

    The other problem I forsee with pursuing action first is simply time - There's a LOT of stuff to do here, and with a baby and a full time job, I get anxiety just reading that thread into how much work I'd have to do here to take it all the way.

    Appreciate your opinion on this!
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 12th Jul 18, 10:03 AM
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    Le_Kirk
    Interestingly enough, a friend in the development received a ticket. He ignored it and after a year, everything stopped.
    Originally posted by MercilessKiller
    ........... so far. They have six years to pursue a debt (real or alleged). Your friend should get prepared!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Jul 18, 10:20 AM
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    Umkomaas
    Originally Posted by MercilessKiller
    Interestingly enough, a friend in the development received a ticket. He ignored it and after a year, everything stopped.
    This forum is riddled with ignored parking tickets that rear their ugly heads many years after the parking event. Then the task becomes a more difficult one to deal with once court proceedings are involved.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 12th Jul 18, 11:05 AM
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    MercilessKiller
    Well - Crap! So sometimes 5 years may go by and then an LBC pops up?

    In that case, it definitely sounds like going on the offensive is needed. I'll go through the lease with a fine tooth comb later today and post the sections that relate to parking. It looks like it will be a mirror of hairray however.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 12th Jul 18, 11:54 AM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    Re your neighbour, that's just the way it goes sometimes. Some people get ticketed, others don't. Some tickets get enforced, some don't. Don't assume you will be lucky.


    The management company will probably be acting as agent of the freeholder - there'll be something in the lease about their powers.
    The crux of this is "estate regulations" or the equivalent, and the power to introduce new regulations. You need to look carefully at how they are defined. There was a case recently (someone may know it, I think it was probably on Parking Prankster's site and it's certainly been mentioned recently on another residential parking thread, in the last week or so) where the lease said something like the new regulations were to be for the comfort and convenience of residents. The judge decided that the parking regulations did not fit that definition. Another judge may say they do, that's DJ bingo (I know that here in Swansea there is one DJ who regularly finds that new parking regulations are permitted under these clauses as he mutters under his breath about how his daughter lived in a block where there was a problem with rogue parkers and how reasonable it is to bring in a ppc to tackle the issue).


    In hairray's case, the estate regulations all seemed to be about things you couldn't do rather than things you had to do, and they were all about the common parts but not about the car park - eg you couldn't play ball games, ride a horse, have a BBQ, that sort of thing. So I would have said that parking regulations were neither for residents' comfort and convenience nor within the meaning of the regulations. Plus in addition there is no power at all to require you to pay anything other than what's in your lease - so you cannot be obliged to pay contractual charges to a 3rd party for failing to comply with a new "regulation", they can only charge you ground rent and whatever else the lease says. Nor is there any power to impose on you a contractual relationship with a third party. And there's certainly nothing permitting them to do anything on your space or to your car. No stepping foot on the space, no touching your car.


    There is also a technical leasehold argument that where they want to vary leases they have to follow a certain procedure. See if you can find that on a thread here (try advanced searching for words/phrases like alteration of lease, or the Law of Property Act or Leasehold). If you can't find it, just search out as many residential cases as you can find and read all of them. Concentrate first on threads started in the last 3 months rather than older ones (with the exception of hairray and danielsan).


    Now onto this business of logging your VRN with them. It is clear that this was intended (if not expressly said at the time) to be a back up system for cancelling PCNs issued to genuine residents. otherwise, what was the point of logging your VRN? So I'd say that if any contract did exist, then it was an implied term of that contract that if something went wrong and you received a pcn, then it would be cancelled once it was known that your car was on the whitelist, or whatever.


    Another legal argument for when the time comes is that again, if there is a contract, the breach of it was de minimis because rather than displaying the permit in your windscreen, it was on the front seat of the car, face up and in full view (and this is obvious because the operator took a photo from a very awkward angle, in a clear attempt to disguise the fact that (s)he could see your permit quite clearly).


    These contractual arguments are for when the time comes to answer any LBC and defend proceedings. In the meantime, I'd get on with reading that lease and going on the offensive with the freeholder and the management company and the PPC. I would mention at this stage to the PPC that when you were asked to provide your VRN it was clearly for the purposes of a residents' "whitelist" so that any pcn given to a genuine residents could be cancelled.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 12th Jul 18, 4:32 PM
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    MercilessKiller
    Thanks so much for that reply and appreciate all the detail again. I'm aware P4Parking have *never* had a known case go to court (someone mentioned that earlier?) - If that's true, does that not strengthen the position of doing nothing or would you still suggest pursuing further?

    We actually changed our management company in the development recently so replaced the original management company (who were the people who told me about the number plate optional requirement for this purpose). The new management company today sent me an email saying they did not know why I was told that, and also did not know anything about the "optional" element of registering a number plate as they "had not yet seen a permit without a numberplate registered" <-- This is quite odd - I imagine if I just go around the car park I'd see loads without one as it was totally optional and not required.

    I have thought about applying for a new permit and saying I don't know what the number plate would be so getting a blank one, to show them the paradox.

    I have provided quotes below from my lease that refer to the car parking spot and regulations. You'll see identical language from the other thread. Would I use this when emailing the management company (not the freeholder, or both?) telling them to get the permit cancelled? The management company implied they have no right to request the PPC to be rescinded in an earlier email to me as I didn't meet the rules specified on the boards that are visible around the development.

    Quotes below. I've had to type this as the scanned lease isn't clear enough for copy/paste (unless I sent screenshots) so apologies for any typos. There is also more text about having the right for the management company or 3rd parties to access the property for certain reasons around maintenance etc but nothing about parking regulation access etc:

    "Estate Regulations"

    means any rule or regulation made by the Management Company from time to time for the benefit of use and enjoyment of the Development or any part thereof
    18. To comply with and make all reasonable endeavours to ensure that all persons living in or visiting the Property or using the Allocated Parking Space (if any) or any part of the Maintained Property shall comply with the Estate Regulations
    The right for the Landlord at his discretion but acting reasonably to serve written notice on the Tenant to vary the position of the Allocated Parking Space (if any) to any other parking space on or at the Development which has not been allocated to another of the Dwellings and thereafter such alternative parking space as is allocated shall constitute the Allocated Parking Space (if any) for the purpose of this Lease AND for the avoidance of doubt the Landlord may vary the position of the Allocated Parking Space (if any) on more than one occasion
    9. Not to use the Allocated Parking Space (if any) for any purpose other than for the purpose of parking one private motor vehicles not exceeding three tonnes in gross laden weight or a motor cycle one each Allocated Parking Space (if any) such vehicles to be in a roadworthy condition and insured and taxed and not to store or permit to be stored therein or thereon any flammable or combustible materials (save in the vehicle parked on the Allocated Parking Space (if any))
    5. The right for the Tenant and the tenant or occupiers of the Property his or their employees and visitors (in common with all other persons having the like right) to go pass and re-pass with or without vehicles (as appropriate) at all times and for all purposes over and along:-
    5.1 the Estate Roads the Accessways and the Block Accessway for the purpose of access to and aggress from the Property and to and from the Allocated Parking Space (if any) which is situated in Basement Car Park in Block X or at surface level in Block Y
    5.2 the Estate Communal Areas
    The Second Schedule

    The Maintained Property

    ALL THAT part or parts of the Development comprimising:-

    1. The Estate Communal Areas;
    2. the private Parking Spaces;
    6.19 Any covenants or restrictions the benefit of which has been previously annexed to the Property may from time to time be wholly or partly released, waived or varied by the Landlord acting reasonably (whether or not the property to which the benefit of such covenants or restrictions has been annexed still forms part of the Development) without the consent or reference to the Tenant or any other person PROVIDED THAT such variation or waiver shall not materially adversely affect the Tenant's use of the Property.
    17. Not to do or permit or suffer to be done any act matter or thing on or in respect of the Property which contravenes the provisions of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 or any enactment amending or replacing it and to keep the Landlord and the Management Company indemnified against all claims demands and liabilities in respect of any such future contravention
    The Fifth Schedule
    Rights to which the demise is the subject
    1. The right of support and shelter for the other parts of the Development the Block and the Basement Car Park by and from the Property

    2. Such rights of access to and entry upon the Property and the Balcony Area (if any) by the Landlord its tenants the Management Company and/or their agents the owners of the other Dwellings and/or the Esco with or without plant and machinery upon reasonable notice at reasonable times (save in case of an emergency) as are necessary for the proper performance of its or their obligations hereunder or under covenants relating to other parts of the Development for the repair decoration maintenance or inspection of other parts of the Development and including the following rights of access:-

    2.1 in order to view and examine the state and condition and/or the actual user thereof and of any adjoining property and to take particulars of the Landlords fixtures and fittings and all additions therein or improvements

    2.2 in order to execute any works of renewal cleansing alteration maintenance or repair to any Buildings or to the Block or any other part of the Development
    7. Generally managing and administering the Maintained Property and protecting the amenities thereof and for that purpose if necessary employing a firm of managing agents or consultants or similar and the payment of all costs and expenses incurred by the Management Company:

    7.1 in the running and management of the Development and the collection of the rents and in the enforcement of the covenants and conditions and regulations contained in the transfers and leases of the Dwellings and any Estate Regulations
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    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 12th Jul 18, 4:42 PM
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    NeilCr
    Can I check something. Who is the freeholder? It's just that you have said "we" a couple of times. "We have just changed the management company." "We are reviewing the contract".

    It sounds from that that you guys own the freehold.
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 12th Jul 18, 4:49 PM
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    MercilessKiller
    Can I check something. Who is the freeholder? It's just that you have said "we" a couple of times. "We have just changed the management company." "We are reviewing the contract".

    It sounds from that that you guys own the freehold.
    Originally posted by NeilCr
    That's just me using bad wording.

    I am the leaseholder. The freehold was last year sold to Mainstay from the building developer. The management company switched hands from the original management company, to a different one which the residents voted on and took over the development 6 months ago.

    P4Parking were instructed, I'm assuming by the old management company, when I first moved in 3 years ago. The development was built in phases. I bought off-plan in the 2nd to last phase but I imagine P4Parking were instructed before I moved in due to the other parts of the development being live?

    So when i say we.. I'm talking about me and my wife really
    Last edited by MercilessKiller; 12-07-2018 at 5:05 PM.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
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    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 12th Jul 18, 6:58 PM
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    MercilessKiller
    Just adding to this, I received this from the management company over email:
    Hi



    I am not aware of blank permits being issued. My understanding they always have a registration on them. If it has a registration on it or not is not really the issue. A permit was not displayed and it clearly states a permit must be displayed. I double checked by reading the notices last night.



    Kind Regards

    Alan
    However, I have just double checked the parking lot and checked 10 cars. ALL 10 cars had permits WITHOUT a registration on them. In fact, I couldn't find a car that did other than mine (!!!!) - So while Alan and this management company are only 6 months in, there is clearly a discrepancy between what was expected. Why on earth would anyone register a number plate voluntary to be permanent on the permit if it was optional?
    Last edited by MercilessKiller; 12-07-2018 at 7:05 PM.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
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    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 12th Jul 18, 7:04 PM
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    The Deep
    Merciless lapdog, read this and complain to your MP

    https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?377246-UKPC-liable-for-trespass-**SUCCESS**

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 12th Jul 18, 7:27 PM
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    MercilessKiller
    Thanks! I've written to my local MP with a long and strong note about what's happened here. Meanwhile look forward to other responses of my queries above.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
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    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jul 18, 11:51 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    The management company switched hands from the original management company, to a different one which the residents voted on and took over the development 6 months ago.
    So why didn't the new ManCo kick out the scumbags? Do it now.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 13th Jul 18, 9:09 AM
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    MercilessKiller
    So why didn't the new ManCo kick out the scumbags? Do it now.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I've been told by a fellow resident (who's on the residential board) that they are reviewing the termination process but that can only be confirmed once we've got a replacement. We do have problems with unauthorised parking over the development blocking access to emergency services from some housing association tenants so I think they do want to progress with some form of protection against that.

    But I think it's pretty clear that they should be acting in the best interest of the owners, not of their own pockets.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 13th Jul 18, 11:59 AM
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    nosferatu1001
    " for the benefit of use and enjoyment of the Development or any part thereof"

    Claiming your right to park can be removed or fettered isnt to your benefit or enjoyment
    Claiming you are required to entere a contract in order to park, and can be charged 100 for the privilege, likewise.

    Tell your M Co to get it cancelled, as they are liable for the actions of their agents. Their agents are trying to interfere with your lease, which is a tort.
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 13th Jul 18, 3:23 PM
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    MercilessKiller
    Hi There

    So they've already told me they won't be able to interfere with the ticket but I'm thinking of sending the following - any advice?

    "Dear Sir

    Thanks for getting back to me yesterday regarding the queries I had on my recent parking ticket.

    I've read through my lease in detail and can confirm that the terms of my lease have been broken by P4Parking, and the contract undertaken by the management of the development to enforce rules that I never agreed to as a resident.

    There is a specific term in the lease that defines Estate Regulations as "for the benefit of use and enjoyment of the Development of any part thereof" - In this particular case, removing my legal right to park is not related to displaying any such permit.

    In addition, I have not entered into any contract that would charge me 100 (the P4Parking ticket cost) for the privilege of using my right to park in my Allocated Parking Space.

    I would also like to point out that, contrary to your email, it appears that many permits do not have a number plate registered with them. I must pose the question to you as to what benefit there would be for the resident to register a number plate on a permit, if not to ensure a central system has a record of which car should be parked in which spot?

    As you are liable for the actions of the 3rd party in this particular situation due to conflicting with my lease agreement, I would appreciate your immediate action to have this ticket withdrawn. The 3rd party is interfering with my lease, which is a tort.

    Please let me know if you'd like any further information to help in ensuring a quick resolution. I'm also aware that you're currently reviewing potential replacements for P4Parking, and I would strongly recommend ensuring that our lease agreement is not broken by any other 3rd party.

    Yours Faithfully,

    [Name, address, date, number etc...]

    How does this sound as a first message to the management company? I don't have the "senior managers" name but assuming my contact (Alan) will forward appropriately.
    Last edited by MercilessKiller; 13-07-2018 at 4:09 PM.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 13th Jul 18, 3:29 PM
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    IamEmanresu
    It looks like it has covered the bases but the issue with all MA's is that they have no money. If you sue them (as you can) it will be you and the others that have to cough up.

    Bottom line is you have actually to be merciless in all this and follow through / upset the others.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Jul 18, 3:40 PM
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    Umkomaas
    Hi Alan
    Kind Regards
    Isn't the way to start and end a business letter that may be a precursor to a legal fight. Far too chummy.

    Dear Mr ...... / Yours sincerely

    Dear Sir / Yours faithfully
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 13th Jul 18, 3:52 PM
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    • 6,343 Thanks
    MercilessKiller
    Isn't the way to start and end a business letter that may be a precursor to a legal fight. Far too chummy.

    Dear Mr ...... / Yours sincerely

    Dear Sir / Yours faithfully
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Thanks - I only know the person at the management company as Alan so will go with the Dear Sir and yours sincerely. Updated.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Jul 18, 4:05 PM
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    Umkomaas
    Thanks - I only know the person at the management company as Alan so will go with the Dear Sir and yours sincerely. Updated.
    Originally posted by MercilessKiller
    Nope! You will go with Dear Sir / Yours faithfully.

    'Yours sincerely' is used when the salutation includes the person's name.

    Did you not cover this in 'letter writing' lessons in school? It was drummed into me.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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