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  • FIRST POST
    • Thorsson
    • By Thorsson 11th Jul 18, 12:33 AM
    • 146Posts
    • 71Thanks
    Thorsson
    CPCN Athena ANPR Lidl
    • #1
    • 11th Jul 18, 12:33 AM
    CPCN Athena ANPR Lidl 11th Jul 18 at 12:33 AM
    Facts:
    The Lidl supermarket in question is quite new and only visited on two prior occasions, when it first opened. On this particular day the driver had to go to the Doctor's Surgery, but their car park was full so the driver parked in the first car park space in Lidl (there were plenty of spaces), which is over the road. They didn't see any signs, but then they only drove to the first bay and had other things on their mind.

    After they saw the Doctor, which took some time thanks to a new system, they went back to the car and drove straight away, still not seeing any signs.

    Note that the signs have not been checked at this point, but they will be.

    Yesterday I got a Civil Parking Charge Notice, as the Registered Keeper, from Athena ANPR. The notice was issued 3 working days after the alleged offence and reached me 1 working day later, which I think wipes out one defence.

    The photographs on the PCN show my car and two purported times, but do not show where they were taken. The PCN states that the car was there for 2:14:05 and is only allowed for 2:00:00. The charge is 90, but only 45 if paid before the end of next week. I understand this is normal procedure.

    I have read the NEWBIES thread and a lot more stuff besides and I reasonably experienced in dealing with contracts. Here there seems little point in complaining to Lidl (which seems to be a popular defence) as the driver did not use the store and in fact has only ever done so twice - they have no recollection of seeing parking signs on those occasions either, but it was months ago; it is possible the parking restrictions have been added since or maybe they were there all along.

    I have a number of questions. I've found several different suggested letters in the threads, which appear to have taken different tacks. I can see that the first is now out of date as ParkingEye v Beavis appears to have changed things. There is another, fairly recent, which appears in one of the threads referenced in NEWBIES, that suggests you don't appeal but ask them several questions, like provide all photos of the car, photos of the signs, etc. Then there's the template BPA/IPC appeal in the NEWBIES thread itself.

    BPA seems rather different to IPC from what I've read, so I'm a little surprised that the same approach should be used for both. As I haven't seen the signage, I can't really use the bit about "Your signage terms fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence...". Should I wait until I have had a chance to look at it? Would taking pictures of what's visible as you enter the park and from where the vehicle was parked be a good idea (presuming that they show the signage isn't clear)?

    As I understand it IPC don't use POPLA, so should it be mentioned? Should I say anything about ISA, or just ignore it?

    Is there really any need for the "Firms of your ilk..." para? My general feeling in disputes is that inflammatory language just puts people's backs up and can mean that it becomes personal, whereas you'd rather they just put you on the "too difficult" pile.

    Also can anyone explain why we want them to send responses by snail mail? Is it simply to increase time and cost? Can they respond likewise?

    Finally (I know, I ask a lot of questions), the other "appeal" has these 3 paras, which I quite like. Were they dropped for a reason:

    Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs which would be a thinly-veiled attempt at 'double recovery'. I will not respond to debt collectors and to involve a third party would be a failure to mitigate your costs as well as deliberate and knowing misuse of my data.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause (e.g. if you do not fully comply with the IPC Code of Practice in terms of signage at this site, for example) please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than 250 for any Data Protection Act breach.

    For the avoidance of doubt, I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle, whether you have already obtained it or not. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Jul 18, 1:22 AM
    • 61,698 Posts
    • 74,601 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 11th Jul 18, 1:22 AM
    • #2
    • 11th Jul 18, 1:22 AM
    Here there seems little point in complaining to Lidl (which seems to be a popular defence) as the driver did not use the store and in fact has only ever done so twice - they have no recollection of seeing parking signs on those occasions either, but it was months ago; it is possible the parking restrictions have been added since or maybe they were there all along
    OK but that's the only way to cancel it.

    As I haven't seen the signage, I can't really use the bit about "Your signage terms fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence...".
    Not true, they all fail that test, that's why it's in the template. No-one is expected to waste time going to look. PPCs make signs non-prominent because this entire industry is a scam and they do not want people to notice the terms.

    Is there really any need for the "Firms of your ilk..." para? My general feeling in disputes is that inflammatory language just puts people's backs up and can mean that it becomes personal, whereas you'd rather they just put you on the "too difficult" pile.
    That's true of a normal company with customers (e.g.Lidl). But the template appeal letter is for a scammer, who have no customer service ethic whatsoever and who MPs in Parliament called much worse, in February! They deserve no respect whatsoever and it is personal, so dumbing it down is pointless.

    Also can anyone explain why we want them to send responses by snail mail? Is it simply to increase time and cost? Can they respond likewise?
    The template finishes by refusing to receive a POPLA code or court papers by email. That's to stop people missing it. Especially from litigious firms who might sue years later, using an old email address under the new/changing MCOL arrangements.

    Finally (I know, I ask a lot of questions), the other "appeal" has these 3 paras, which I quite like. Were they dropped for a reason:
    If you like that version use it, or ignore Athena altogether because you CANNOT get this cancelled, they will NOT put it on a 'too difficult' pile. But they never sue, either!

    'Ignore them' is an option with Athena (but not true of most PPCs).

    I dropped the old appeal for the reason that PPCs started replying to the Section 10 notice and people couldn't understand what was being said or thought the APPEAL response had to come back within 21 days (whereas the 21 days is about a Section 10 notice response deadline, not an appeal reply deadline).
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 11-07-2018 at 11:52 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Thorsson
    • By Thorsson 11th Jul 18, 7:47 AM
    • 146 Posts
    • 71 Thanks
    Thorsson
    • #3
    • 11th Jul 18, 7:47 AM
    • #3
    • 11th Jul 18, 7:47 AM
    Thanks for the answers; they all make sense. Just a few follow ups.

    On the off chance that Athena change their practices (it's clear that some of the firms have adapted to these defences over the last few years) and it does go to court, should I try to get some pictures anyway if they show the signs are not visible as you enter and fail the large lettering test?

    Should I mention in the appeal that their photos do not show any location (for the same reason)?

    It appears that the "90 is unreasonable for 14 minutes parking" line is no longer seen as a good defence - can you confirm?

    Given that the driver did not shop in Lidl and frankly it would be very difficult to spend over 2 hours in there shopping, would it still be worthwhile trying the CEO letter approach? All the threads I've read where people did this, they did actually shop in Lidl and none had two hours allowed (and it's not a huge Lidl, two hours would be forever in there).

    Thanks again!
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 11th Jul 18, 9:16 AM
    • 37,320 Posts
    • 21,508 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #4
    • 11th Jul 18, 9:16 AM
    • #4
    • 11th Jul 18, 9:16 AM
    If you intend appealing then send it as is. Accept it's going to be rejected

    Always worth a complaint to the retailer!
    • Thorsson
    • By Thorsson 15th Jul 18, 1:24 PM
    • 146 Posts
    • 71 Thanks
    Thorsson
    • #5
    • 15th Jul 18, 1:24 PM
    • #5
    • 15th Jul 18, 1:24 PM
    Thanks. I have a last set of questions, which are about the online form. I assume I should:

    1. Ignore all the stuff about driver.
    2. Give them my email, but withhold my phone number (I'm ex-D, so they can't get it legally).
    3. Use "Other" as the reason for appeal.
    4. Upload a letter as a document, rather than use the provided box. If so, should I note in the box what documents are being uploaded (so as to show up in my screenshot)?

    Also, I re-visited the site and took some photos. The signs are indeed quite small and the lettering pretty damn small - you need to get to within 3 feet to read. It's pretty clear that from where I parked you cannot read a thing on any of the signs. I know that these guys reject all appeals and never take anyone to court, but in case the leopard changes its spots (e.g. someone more aggressive buys them), is it worth uploading these photos - or if it ever did go to court, could I submit them at that point with the same effect? Is there any downside to uploading them?
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 15th Jul 18, 1:48 PM
    • 37,402 Posts
    • 84,289 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #6
    • 15th Jul 18, 1:48 PM
    • #6
    • 15th Jul 18, 1:48 PM
    1) Yes

    2) Name and address of keeper is also required. If you're filling in an online form where a phone number is mandatory, give 0333-8888888. This takes callers to a recorded message telling them to contact you by email.

    3) Yes

    4) Yes, as a pdf so it can't be edited by the scammers.

    In addition, don't abuse private land by parking when you have no business there. It's one of the reasons why these scammers exist. If you use that car park again, at least use the shop as well.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 15-07-2018 at 2:01 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 15th Jul 18, 1:54 PM
    • 3,207 Posts
    • 2,126 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    • #7
    • 15th Jul 18, 1:54 PM
    • #7
    • 15th Jul 18, 1:54 PM
    4) Yes, as a pdf so it can't be edited by the scammers.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Sure it was only a typo - well, missed keystroke
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 15th Jul 18, 2:02 PM
    • 37,402 Posts
    • 84,289 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #8
    • 15th Jul 18, 2:02 PM
    • #8
    • 15th Jul 18, 2:02 PM
    Sure it was only a typo - well, missed keystroke
    Originally posted by Le_Kirk
    Correct, and corrected. Thanks.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Thorsson
    • By Thorsson 15th Jul 18, 3:21 PM
    • 146 Posts
    • 71 Thanks
    Thorsson
    • #9
    • 15th Jul 18, 3:21 PM
    • #9
    • 15th Jul 18, 3:21 PM
    Thanks @ Fruitcake.

    They already have the name and address of keeper, as that's what it says on the PCN. There's no room on the form for any address other than that of driver.

    It's actually at the edge of town and there's usually more than enough parking in the town centre. I would have thought Athena would have pretty slim pickings there.
    Last edited by Thorsson; 23-07-2018 at 9:11 PM.
    • Thorsson
    • By Thorsson 15th Jul 18, 3:36 PM
    • 146 Posts
    • 71 Thanks
    Thorsson
    @ Coupon-mad - as an aside, does section 10 of the DPA still apply, now that we have DPA 2018?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jul 18, 3:51 PM
    • 61,698 Posts
    • 74,601 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Dunno TBH, I can't find it as 'section 10' but only had 5 mins to look. The section 10 notice is no longer part of the NEWBIES appeal template since last time I edited it, I removed it because people just don't understand and it complicated the appeal.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 20-07-2018 at 7:33 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Thorsson
    • By Thorsson 15th Jul 18, 9:23 PM
    • 146 Posts
    • 71 Thanks
    Thorsson
    Dunno TBH, I can't find it as 'section 10' but only had 5 mins to look. The section 10 notice is no longer part of the NEWBIES appeal template since last tie I edited it, I removed it because people just don't understand and it complicated the appeal.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I couldn't find it either, so I suspect it has been superseded.

    No problem, just flagging it up for reference.
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 15th Jul 18, 9:36 PM
    • 1,779 Posts
    • 2,249 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    Thanks @ Fruitcake.

    They already have the name and address of keeper, as that's what it says on the PCN. There's no room on the form for any address other than that of driver.

    Regarding the car park, it's the first time The driver parked there. There were loads of free spaces both at the time and in general. It's actually at the edge of town and there's usually more than enough parking in the town centre. I would have thought Athena would have pretty slim pickings there; probably explains why they were so quick off the mark with the PCN.
    Originally posted by Thorsson
    athenas ONLY picking (income) is from people like you
    Last edited by twhitehousescat; 23-07-2018 at 9:19 PM.
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Thorsson
    • By Thorsson 15th Jul 18, 9:39 PM
    • 146 Posts
    • 71 Thanks
    Thorsson
    Hopefully not people like me.
    • bergkamp
    • By bergkamp 23rd Jul 18, 8:53 PM
    • 193 Posts
    • 347 Thanks
    bergkamp
    I would edit post #9 Thorsson, as you are identifying the driver. So is the quote in post #13...
    • Thorsson
    • By Thorsson 23rd Jul 18, 9:12 PM
    • 146 Posts
    • 71 Thanks
    Thorsson
    Thanks bergkamp. It is rather.
    • Thorsson
    • By Thorsson 1st Aug 18, 7:54 PM
    • 146 Posts
    • 71 Thanks
    Thorsson
    Here was my Appeal:

    Dear Sir or Madam,

    Parking Charge Notice No: XXX
    Vehicle registration number: XXX

    I appeal and dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn, nor was there an agreed contract. Your signage terms fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence of the parking charge, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis, which is fully distinguished. Indeed the signage in this car park is particularly poor, for which there is photographic evidence.

    Should you fail to cancel this PCN, I require with your rejection letter, all images taken of this vehicle and the signs at the location that day. Do not withhold any images or data later relied on for POPLA/court. The photos supplied on the PCN could have been taken anywhere.

    Firms of your ilk have been unanimously condemned earlier this year as operating an 'outrageous scam' (Hansard 2.2.18). The BPA and IPC were heavily criticised too; hardly surprising for an industry where so-called AOS members admit to letting victims 'futilely go through the motions' of appeal and say on camera 'we make it up sometimes' (BBC Watchdog).

    Formal note:
    Service of any rejection letter/POPLA code and/or legal documents by email is expressly disallowed. All responses to me from this point on must be made by post. Regardless of any MCOL online/email system, service of any court claim must only be made by first class post to the latest address provided by me.
    Appeal Rejection

    Dear xxxxx,

    Thank you for your email in regards to the above parking charge notice.

    Your email contains an appeal and a request for information. I will respond to both of these separately in this email.

    1. Appeal

    Under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, the registered keeper will remain liable for the charge unless driver details are provided within the initial 28 days of the notice to keeper being served. As you are not prepared to state who was driving on the day, you remain liable for this charge.

    We have reviewed your appeal and there is no valid reason for cancellation therefore your appeal has been rejected.

    A letter will follow shortly via post with details on how you can appeal further to the Independent Appeals Service.

    The parking charge remains outstanding.

    2. Data Request

    You also requested a copy of images that we have for your vehicle.

    Please be advised that we have not stored any further images for your vehicle and only have the images contained in the Parking Charge Notice that has been issued and received by you already.

    Our requirement to provide those images to you has therefore already been complied with and we are not required to resend them to you.

    Kind Regards,

    Data Protection Officer
    Based on the NEWBIES thread I believe I now ignore this, ignore the IAS appeal and any debt collection 'correspondence' and wait to see if I get an LBC.

    Note that this was sent by email, and therefore ignored my note regarding use of post and also they have not supplied the locations of signs. I presume this is also standard behaviour for these types and I shouldn't say anything at this stage?

    Thanks
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 1st Aug 18, 8:05 PM
    • 9,291 Posts
    • 9,553 Thanks
    KeithP
    Yes, nothing more to do unless you receive either a Letter of Claim or official court correspondence.

    Always worth a complaint to the retailer, as suggested by Quentin in post #4 - especially true with Lidl and Athena.
    .
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 1st Aug 18, 8:25 PM
    • 19,484 Posts
    • 30,820 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Christian Haertnagel, Lidl MD, will cancel this for you. Strong complaint to him will do the job. No point in pursuing anything with Lidl Customer Services and definitely nothing more to do with Athena.

    Christian.haertnagel@lidl.co.uk

    Other emails that might get to him:

    compliance@lidl.co.uk

    Dispute.Resolution@lidl.co.uk
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Thorsson
    • By Thorsson 1st Aug 18, 8:49 PM
    • 146 Posts
    • 71 Thanks
    Thorsson
    Thanks. Will give it a go.
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