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  • FIRST POST
    • vkw_69
    • By vkw_69 9th Jul 18, 11:01 AM
    • 6Posts
    • 2Thanks
    vkw_69
    Euro Car Parks Rejection
    • #1
    • 9th Jul 18, 11:01 AM
    Euro Car Parks Rejection 9th Jul 18 at 11:01 AM
    Newbie and have read the newbie post but wonder if someone could help me out.

    My rejection email only stated the time I was over in the car park, (3 mins) and a sign to show the maximum allowed time. No photographic evidence at all. How will I win the POPLA appeal with no photos? Or will it help me in the long run?

    Is it worth me taking it further with POPLA or just hanging fire and ignoring?

    Its my company car so would prefer ECP to not send debt letters to work and or bailiff letter as the boss may call a code brown at me but Im happy to do as advised if its legit not going to bring the debt collectors to work!!
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 9th Jul 18, 11:06 AM
    • 37,792 Posts
    • 84,847 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 9th Jul 18, 11:06 AM
    • #2
    • 9th Jul 18, 11:06 AM
    The advice to ignore has not been given on this site since the law changed in 2012.

    If you have a PoPLA code, use it. Use all the template appeal points available to you from post 3 of the NEWBIES. Grace periods (note the plural) will feature prominently in your appeal.
    Take your own pics of the entrance and signage at the car park in question.

    If your initial appeal was made in your name as day to day keeper, then your employer should never see anything. Did you give away the driver's identity in your initial appeal? I hope not.

    Debt collectors have no powers and can be ignored. They can't turn up at your door, or at work.
    There will be no bailiffs unless you lose in court and fail to pay, but you are nowhere near that.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 09-07-2018 at 11:09 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Jul 18, 11:14 AM
    • 20,275 Posts
    • 32,010 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 9th Jul 18, 11:14 AM
    • #3
    • 9th Jul 18, 11:14 AM
    Its my company car so would prefer ECP to not send debt letters to work and or bailiff letter
    Are ECP communicating directly with you or via your employer?

    My rejection email only stated the time I was over in the car park, (3 mins) and a sign to show the maximum allowed time.
    If ECP are saying that your vehicle overstayed by just 3 minutes then they have not applied the minimum Grace Period of 10 minutes, which is a winning appeal point at POPLA.

    Is it worth me taking it further with POPLA
    Why not? It's pretty much a risk-free opportunity to kill this off.

    or just hanging fire and ignoring?
    Definitely not. While ECP are not currently litigious, where similar PPCs have become litigious, it's often their back-catalogue of ignored claims they commence with. They have 6 years to sue, and, like me, you have no idea how they might behave between tomorrow and 2024!
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • vkw_69
    • By vkw_69 9th Jul 18, 11:19 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    vkw_69
    • #4
    • 9th Jul 18, 11:19 AM
    • #4
    • 9th Jul 18, 11:19 AM

    If your initial appeal was made in your name as day to day keeper, then your employer should never see anything. Did you give away the driver's identity in your initial appeal? I hope not.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    No, I took the advice from the newbie post and did it as the "registered keeper" My boss wont actually throw a wobbler, I can handle him really, just would prefer not to receive debt letters.

    Thanks for the advice, Im slightly concerned I will make a hash of it and lose the appeal! I shall go back to the newbie post and read up on the appeal process. Thanks again
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 9th Jul 18, 11:30 AM
    • 9,350 Posts
    • 12,303 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #5
    • 9th Jul 18, 11:30 AM
    • #5
    • 9th Jul 18, 11:30 AM
    No, I took the advice from the newbie post and did it as the "registered keeper" My boss wont actually throw a wobbler, I can handle him really, just would prefer not to receive debt letters.

    Thanks for the advice, Im slightly concerned I will make a hash of it and lose the appeal! I shall go back to the newbie post and read up on the appeal process. Thanks again
    Originally posted by vkw_69
    As said by Umkomaas ...... it's the grace period that they
    have ignored that POPLA cannot ignore

    Why don't you take your own pictures to rip their case apart

    Regarding debt collectors .... forget these morons and find
    out why ..... here ...

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74439905#post74439905
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 9th Jul 18, 11:55 AM
    • 37,792 Posts
    • 84,847 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #6
    • 9th Jul 18, 11:55 AM
    • #6
    • 9th Jul 18, 11:55 AM
    No, I took the advice from the newbie post and did it as the "registered keeper" My boss wont actually throw a wobbler, I can handle him really, just would prefer not to receive debt letters.

    Thanks for the advice, Im slightly concerned I will make a hash of it and lose the appeal! I shall go back to the newbie post and read up on the appeal process. Thanks again
    Originally posted by vkw_69
    If the appeal was in your name with your address, then your boss will never see anything to do with this. Well, they shouldn't. If they do then there will be a whole raft of complaints for you to send out.

    Just take it steady and follow the tried and tested methods you will find in the NEWBIES.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Jul 18, 7:47 PM
    • 64,101 Posts
    • 76,690 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 10th Jul 18, 7:47 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Jul 18, 7:47 PM
    So did you appeal as 'the company'?

    That makes for a decent POPLA appeal as per others I have no time to dig out.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • vkw_69
    • By vkw_69 3rd Aug 18, 1:59 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    vkw_69
    • #8
    • 3rd Aug 18, 1:59 PM
    • #8
    • 3rd Aug 18, 1:59 PM
    Yes, appeal made as the company.

    Have had a response from ECP via POPLA, 27 pages of blurb and now pics of the driver. Are we likely to lose this? *edited*
    Last edited by vkw_69; 19-09-2018 at 12:40 PM.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 3rd Aug 18, 2:05 PM
    • 3,989 Posts
    • 4,786 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #9
    • 3rd Aug 18, 2:05 PM
    • #9
    • 3rd Aug 18, 2:05 PM
    Have you bothered to read the ECP threads, where noone ever pays them?

    EDIT YOUR POST. SERIOUSLY!
    It has pictures of THE DRIVER. They have NO IDEA who that is, unles you tell them.

    We have no idea what theyve said, in their appeal response, because youve given us nothing of use.
    • vkw_69
    • By vkw_69 11th Sep 18, 10:46 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    vkw_69
    Assessor supporting rational for decision
    When parking on private land, it is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure they adhere to the terms and conditions of the car park. The operator has provided photographs of the signage explaining the terms and conditions, as displayed on signs throughout the site. The signage states: “CUSTOMERS ONLY…THIS CAR PARK IS CONTROLLED, FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THE FOLLOWING WILL RESULT IN THE ISSUE OF A 90 PARKING CHARGE NOTICE…MAXIMUM STAY 3 HOURS (07:00 to 21:00)…MAXIMUM STAY 15 MINUTES (21:00 to 07:00)…WE ARE USING CAMERAS TO CAPTURE IMAGES OF VEHICLE NUMBER PLATES AND CALCULATE THE LENGTH OF STAY BETWEEN ENTRY AND EXIT AT ALL TIMES INCLUDING BANK HOLIDAYS”. The operator has provided images from the Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) system, which shows the appellant’s vehicle,, entered the site at 21:03 and exited the site at 21:36 on 22 June 2018. A total stay of 32 minutes. The operator has issued the PCN as the vehicle was parked for longer than the maximum period allowed. As the driver has not been identified within the appeal to POPLA or to the operator, I need to ensure that the operator has shown strict compliance with the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012. PoFA 2012 is used to transfer liability from the driver of the vehicle to the keeper of the vehicle when the driver has not been identified. I have reviewed the Notice to Keeper and I am satisfied that the operator has shown strict compliance with PoFA 2012 and as such, liability has been transferred to the keeper of the vehicle. The appellant’s case is that the operator has not allowed the minimum grace period. ANPR systems are used to take images of vehicles entering a site and exiting. The operator then uses the times of these ANPR images to calculate the total duration of stay on site. When motorists use a free car park, they do not need to obtain the free parking period; all they do is park their vehicle on site and agree to comply with the terms and conditions. As the site permits motorists to 15 minutes of free parking time and the signage advises motorists that the images captured at the entry and exit are used to calculate the stay, I am satisfied that the free parking period would begin from the time the vehicle enters the site. Operators are required to allow motorists a minimum grace period of 10 minutes to leave the site after the parking period ends. The appellant entered the site at 21.03, as such; they were required to leave the site at 21:18. The appellant has not provided sufficient explanation or evidence to show why it took a further 17 minutes to leave the car park. I cannot justify extending the minimum grace period of 10 minutes to cover the overstay of 17 minutes. The appellant says the signage is insufficient. I am unable to determine the location of the entrance sign at the site. However, upon reviewing the photographs of the car park that the operator provided and the site map. I determine that the signage placed throughout the car park is conspicuous. Upon reviewing photographs of the signs themselves, I consider them to be legible and written in intelligible language. As such, the signage is sufficient to make motorists aware of the terms and conditions. I cannot assess the appeal in comparison with the actions of other motorists. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure that when they enter a car park, they have understood the terms and conditions of parking. If the driver was in unable to understand the terms and conditions of the site or felt that the terms and conditions of the site could not be complied with, there would have been sufficient time to leave the site without entering into a contract with the operator. By remaining on the car park, the driver agreed to the terms and conditions displayed throughout the car park. The appellant has accused the operator of poor system implementation and maintenance. When considering such grounds of appeal, I look to see if the operator or the appellant has provided any evidence to cast doubt on the ANPR system’s accuracy. Unless POPLA is presented with sufficient evidence to prove otherwise, we work on the basis that the technology was working at the time of the alleged improper parking. On this occasion, the appellant has not provided POPLA with any evidence to suggest that the ANPR system is not accurate. The appellant says there is no evidence of landowner authority. The operator has provided a copy of the contract it agreed with the landowner. The contract confirmed that the operator has the landowner’s authority to enforce the parking restrictions at the site between 4 December 2017 and 5 January 2021. I determine that the operator has demonstrated that it has authority to manage parking at the site and issue PCNs. The appellant says that the photographs of the PCN issued are not compliant with the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice. Section 20.5a of the BPA Code of Practice states when issuing PCNs, operators “may” use photographs to demonstrate how the vehicle was parked in an unauthorised way. As such, they are not required to use photographs to show how the vehicle was parked in an unauthorised way. The operator has provided timestamped images of the vehicle entering and exiting the site within its evidence pack. I am satisfied that these images demonstrate that the appellant’s vehicle did enter and exit the site at the times stated on the PCN. After assessing the appeal and the evidence provided, I conclude that the driver breached the terms and conditions of the site by staying longer than the maximum stay allowed. As the operator has issued the PCN correctly and used POFA 2012 to transfer liability of the PCN to the registered keeper, I must refuse this appeal.
    Last edited by vkw_69; 11-09-2018 at 11:12 AM.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 11th Sep 18, 10:57 AM
    • 37,946 Posts
    • 22,059 Thanks
    Quentin
    You need more editing.

    As advised in #9!!

    The ppcs monitor this forum and can use your posts against you
    • bergkamp
    • By bergkamp 11th Sep 18, 11:11 AM
    • 208 Posts
    • 372 Thanks
    bergkamp
    POPLA used to state that ECP NTKs were not POFA compliant;

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72914138&highlight=euro+car+parks +pofa#2670

    They haven't changed the wording since the example above as I am in possession of a current NTK!
    • vkw_69
    • By vkw_69 14th Sep 18, 11:38 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    vkw_69
    Sorry people but im still none the wiser what to do now. Could anyone let me know in a "simple" way... For example, very slowly whilst holding my hand. Thanks in advance
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 14th Sep 18, 1:28 PM
    • 10,730 Posts
    • 11,154 Thanks
    KeithP
    Sorry people but im still none the wiser what to do now. Could anyone let me know in a "simple" way... For example, very slowly whilst holding my hand. Thanks in advance
    Originally posted by vkw_69
    More a kick up the R's rather than gentle hand holding...

    Once more it needs to be said... EDIT POST #8 NOW!!


    The words should be:
    ...27 pages of blurb and now pics of the driver in car.
    Is that 'simple' enough?
    .
    • vkw_69
    • By vkw_69 19th Sep 18, 12:41 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    vkw_69
    Very much...
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 19th Sep 18, 1:41 PM
    • 10,645 Posts
    • 10,483 Thanks
    The Deep
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the House of Commons recently

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41 recently.

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Sep 18, 1:37 AM
    • 64,101 Posts
    • 76,690 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Sorry people but im still none the wiser what to do now. Could anyone let me know in a "simple" way... For example, very slowly whilst holding my hand. Thanks in advance
    Originally posted by vkw_69
    Search the forum for Euro POPLA lost & read all the others sitting tight & ignoring.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
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