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    • AMalins
    • By AMalins 8th Jul 18, 5:55 PM
    • 2Posts
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    AMalins
    Changes to working hours
    • #1
    • 8th Jul 18, 5:55 PM
    Changes to working hours 8th Jul 18 at 5:55 PM
    Hi everyone,

    Recently my manager approached me in regards to changing my hours from 8:30am-5:00pm on a daily basis to 6:00am-2:00pm / 2:00pm-10:00pm. I raised a concern with this as it would cause problems with travel etc.

    I'm being told that there is no chance of this changing despite my concerns and upon checking my contract with my employer it does state "This will only occur once you have relevant training to operate the equipment." There are no mentions of what determines relevant training, therefore I feel it is unfair for my employer to suddenly determine my training is complete despite there being no changes to my training in the past 9 months.

    The position did have a probationary period of 6 months, however, I will be remaining on trainee pay when the hours change, which again I feel is unfair as they clearly deem my qualified for the position now.

    I'm wondering if I have any leg to stand on in regards to an increase in pay, changes to the hours, not working shifts or a notice period before changing my hours.

    Any advise/help is appreciated and more information can be provided,
    Thank you
Page 1
    • ohreally
    • By ohreally 8th Jul 18, 6:06 PM
    • 6,814 Posts
    • 5,350 Thanks
    ohreally
    • #2
    • 8th Jul 18, 6:06 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Jul 18, 6:06 PM
    I raised a concern with this as it would cause problems with travel etc.
    Originally posted by AMalins
    There are no mentions of what determines relevant training, therefore I feel it is unfair for my employer to suddenly determine my training is complete despite there being no changes to my training in the past 9 months.
    Originally posted by AMalins

    Whats your argument to be, travelling or competence?
    • AMalins
    • By AMalins 8th Jul 18, 6:22 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    AMalins
    • #3
    • 8th Jul 18, 6:22 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Jul 18, 6:22 PM
    My main problem is mostly surrounding travel, as my only method of public transport is one bus to work on the 6am shift and one bus home when leaving on the 10pm shift, if I miss there, there are delays or any other issues then I will have problems getting to work on time and getting home in general for a reasonable time (a problem that could be solved with a pay rise to fund a car).

    I also find an issue in the fact that, while I have some training for the machines, there are multiple that can't be run at the same time that all fall under my job description, so while it's manageable with two people on one shift, it becomes a problem when spread over two shifts, with deliveries tending to need to be sent out around the end of the first shift, it doesn't spread out the work, merely puts all the pressure on the early shift, with little work for the second, so while I don't see an issue with competence, I do see an issue with being able to operate all areas as one person.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 8th Jul 18, 8:13 PM
    • 39,141 Posts
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    Savvy_Sue
    • #4
    • 8th Jul 18, 8:13 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Jul 18, 8:13 PM
    How you get to and from work is your problem, not the employer's.

    However, it could be worth putting together an argument on the 'competence' front. Either you're competent, and could reasonably request to be raised from the trainee rate, or you're not, and you need further training. If you're not competent, then it doesn't seem you are suitable for the early shift.

    Having said that, how long have you been there? It doesn't seem like it's as long as two years, which means that your employer could get rid of you very easily.

    And how many people are affected by this change? Sometimes there is strength in numbers.

    and are you in a union? That can be helpful too.
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    • Les79
    • By Les79 8th Jul 18, 9:07 PM
    • 571 Posts
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    Les79
    • #5
    • 8th Jul 18, 9:07 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Jul 18, 9:07 PM
    My main problem is mostly surrounding travel, as my only method of public transport is one bus to work on the 6am shift and one bus home when leaving on the 10pm shift, if I miss there, there are delays or any other issues then I will have problems getting to work on time and getting home in general for a reasonable time (a problem that could be solved with a pay rise to fund a car).
    Originally posted by AMalins
    I think you have a fairly valid point about the 10pm finish (though they aren't obliged to agree with you), as it could well strand you at work for the night. That being said, are you REALLY sure that no other bus option exists post 10pm? All local services near me run up to about midnight, and I'd expect that more so from a service which starts before 6am like yours...

    Also, you being stranded is no concern of your employer. In their eyes you have at least one viable option available, so you can get to work. End of story.

    A 125cc motorbike is also a viable option if a car isn't. The insurance can be really low for third party only, sometimes as little as 80 a month. The motorbike is the biggest outlay but can always be done on finance, even 2nd hand is sometimes cheap. Tax is negligible (17 a year maybe?). Basic training is about 120 every 2 years. Petrol consumption is good. You just have to protect it by chaining it up etc, as people sometimes steal them.

    Even so, there are car finance deals out there which allow you to pay X amount per month for the car and the insurance etc. My brother started out on that when he turned 18, but then again he wasn't bogged down with any sort of debt/obligations at the time.


    I also find an issue in the fact that, while I have some training for the machines, there are multiple that can't be run at the same time that all fall under my job description, so while it's manageable with two people on one shift, it becomes a problem when spread over two shifts, with deliveries tending to need to be sent out around the end of the first shift, it doesn't spread out the work, merely puts all the pressure on the early shift, with little work for the second, so while I don't see an issue with competence, I do see an issue with being able to operate all areas as one person.
    Wow! I have just noticed that all of this text is ONE SENTENCE! That's very impressive in one way, but a real drag to read.

    It sounds to me that you CAN operate the machinery adequately, and that it falls under your job description. So not sure you can argue that you aren't yet trained up for it.

    I would certainly raise the point that workload is not adequately spread across the day. I would, however, only be looking for the possibility of leaving some of the non-critical morning workload for the night staff as part of future procedure. That would allow you to focus more on sending out the deliveries in the morning.

    Strange how they've gone from 8:30am-5:00pm on a daily basis to 6:00am-2:00pm / 2:00pm-10:00pm. Double manning on the fixed shift and single manning on the split shifts? If so, they obviously have a new business need for cover 6am-830am and 5pm-10pm and this is unfortunately the only way they can do it. The bottom line is that they need you to do those new hours, and you can either choose to comply or choose to rebel/walk. That being said, you would be wise to check your contract/handbook to see if they have any clauses which allow such changes to working hours.

    The position did have a probationary period of 6 months, however, I will be remaining on trainee pay when the hours change, which again I feel is unfair as they clearly deem my qualified for the position now.
    I certainly feel that you have some leverage here. Not only do they appear to be stretching their resources thinly (if they don't have plans to hire other people then they may worry to a certain extent about you walking), they are sort of saying that you are qualified to operate everything on your own. I would certainly recommend that you speak with your employer and point these things out; with the aim of getting paid the full rate. But that's your call really, as they may well disagree and keep you on the same rate. In that case you may well need to re-consider your employment with the company, or accommodate the changes.
    Last edited by Les79; 08-07-2018 at 9:12 PM.
    • Jackandn
    • By Jackandn 8th Jul 18, 9:31 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Jackandn
    • #6
    • 8th Jul 18, 9:31 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Jul 18, 9:31 PM
    By the sounds of it you are unsure if A. you're still on probation and B. if you can work at these times as a trainee.

    For your probation it is a simple question of if you have passed (which hopefully) your HR if not manager can confirm, if it has been extended you are entitled to a reason why and what you have to do to improve. For the second see if other trainees are being asked to do the same thing and if not ask why you are. It may be better to discuss with your manager what your responsibilities will be at these early times and if you don't feel confident using a piece of equipment tell them and ask for more training (this will be following their own H + S policy).

    Using your contract will only lead to an argument but having a discussion saying that you are confused about what your role is currently with your manager (i.e are you a trainee now or a qualified worker) should hopefully clear things up for you and also use this as an opportunity to explain your concerns to them this can be done in person or via email. Only use your contractual rights if absolutely necessary.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 8th Jul 18, 9:43 PM
    • 5,639 Posts
    • 9,731 Thanks
    sangie595
    • #7
    • 8th Jul 18, 9:43 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Jul 18, 9:43 PM
    Of course, it's all pretty irrelevant if, as it appears, you happen to have less than two years employment. Because if that is the case the employer can get rid of you very easily for just about any reason they like. So before you start telling them what your contact says, and what you will or won't do, you might want to consider that they might not give a damn ...
    • Les79
    • By Les79 8th Jul 18, 10:01 PM
    • 571 Posts
    • 659 Thanks
    Les79
    • #8
    • 8th Jul 18, 10:01 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Jul 18, 10:01 PM
    Of course, it's all pretty irrelevant if, as it appears, you happen to have less than two years employment. Because if that is the case the employer can get rid of you very easily for just about any reason they like. So before you start telling them what your contact says, and what you will or won't do, you might want to consider that they might not give a damn ...
    Originally posted by sangie595
    That's true. But I don't always like pointing that out to people, because many employers these days are tolerant enough to allow employees to ask the question as to why they are on trainee wages despite doing normal duties. The answer may well be "put up with it or leave", but I don't think many employers are *that* cut-throat these days. In that respect, I think OP may well benefit from asking the question here.

    (I agree more with you RE: the change of hours by the way, as I can't really see a strong argument for opposing that).
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 8th Jul 18, 10:34 PM
    • 5,405 Posts
    • 6,737 Thanks
    theoretica
    • #9
    • 8th Jul 18, 10:34 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Jul 18, 10:34 PM
    It is worth noting that you would be going from an 8.5 hour day to an 8 hour day - is the lunch break shorter? Are they really shortening your working week?
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 8th Jul 18, 11:41 PM
    • 5,639 Posts
    • 9,731 Thanks
    sangie595
    That's true. But I don't always like pointing that out to people, because many employers these days are tolerant enough to allow employees to ask the question as to why they are on trainee wages despite doing normal duties. The answer may well be "put up with it or leave", but I don't think many employers are *that* cut-throat these days. In that respect, I think OP may well benefit from asking the question here.

    (I agree more with you RE: the change of hours by the way, as I can't really see a strong argument for opposing that).
    Originally posted by Les79
    Yes - but who says that they are on a "trainee wage"? I can see that the OP thinks they are. I can see that the OP believes that they should be paid more after they complete training/ probation. But what I'm not seeing is any reference to that in the contract that the OP quotes. Unless they are being paid less than the living wage as an apprentice or such like, then they aren't on a trainee wage, they are on a wage. There's no right to increased pay when you complete "training".
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