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  • FIRST POST
    • Eastender
    • By Eastender 8th Jul 18, 10:19 AM
    • 121Posts
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    Eastender
    Can't go to Annual Leave from Sick Leave?
    • #1
    • 8th Jul 18, 10:19 AM
    Can't go to Annual Leave from Sick Leave? 8th Jul 18 at 10:19 AM
    Hello Folks,

    My wife works for NHS type organisation, she was told by her manager that she can't go from sick leave to her pre-booked annual leave, but have to come to work for for least a day before her holiday period. Is this legal?

    She is not feeling very well but worried what he told her and the holiday is a relaxing beach holiday.
Page 1
    • DCFC79
    • By DCFC79 8th Jul 18, 10:24 AM
    • 32,543 Posts
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    DCFC79
    • #2
    • 8th Jul 18, 10:24 AM
    • #2
    • 8th Jul 18, 10:24 AM
    Hello Folks,

    My wife works for NHS type organisation, she was told by her manager that she can't go from sick leave to her pre-booked annual leave, but have to come to work for for least a day before her holiday period. Is this legal?

    She is not feeling very well but worried what he told her and the holiday is a relaxing beach holiday.
    Originally posted by Eastender

    What does it say in her contract ?
    • Eastender
    • By Eastender 8th Jul 18, 10:50 AM
    • 121 Posts
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    Eastender
    • #3
    • 8th Jul 18, 10:50 AM
    • #3
    • 8th Jul 18, 10:50 AM
    What does it say in her contract ?
    Originally posted by DCFC79
    Don't know that but it was given last year. He told her it was in the HR policy?
    • custardy
    • By custardy 8th Jul 18, 11:00 AM
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    custardy
    • #4
    • 8th Jul 18, 11:00 AM
    • #4
    • 8th Jul 18, 11:00 AM
    I would be surprised if this is the case.
    Is your wife expecting to be fit for work after her holiday?
    • xapprenticex
    • By xapprenticex 8th Jul 18, 11:04 AM
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    xapprenticex
    • #5
    • 8th Jul 18, 11:04 AM
    • #5
    • 8th Jul 18, 11:04 AM
    Makes sense to me, they could be using AL as Sick to try to reduce true bradford factor etc.
    • custardy
    • By custardy 8th Jul 18, 11:17 AM
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    custardy
    • #6
    • 8th Jul 18, 11:17 AM
    • #6
    • 8th Jul 18, 11:17 AM
    Makes sense to me, they could be using AL as Sick to try to reduce true bradford factor etc.
    Originally posted by xapprenticex
    Disagree. I get systems are in place for sick policy etc but an employee simply declaring themselves fit for return after their holiday should suffice.
    Eg you hurt your leg and are off sick,you are nearly healed before 2 weeks AL. You will be fine to return after your holiday but this policy you would need to wait until fully healed and then have more AL to take at the end anyway.
    I see no benefit on them being in work for one day for the employer or employee.
    Last edited by custardy; 08-07-2018 at 11:30 AM.
    • unforeseen
    • By unforeseen 8th Jul 18, 11:27 AM
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    unforeseen
    • #7
    • 8th Jul 18, 11:27 AM
    • #7
    • 8th Jul 18, 11:27 AM
    I would have said that if a fit note is not provided before the start of annual leave then the person is still on sick leave.

    Maybe this is why they have to come back for a day in between. To hand in fit note and a return to work interview possibly.
    • Forwandert
    • By Forwandert 8th Jul 18, 11:55 AM
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    Forwandert
    • #8
    • 8th Jul 18, 11:55 AM
    • #8
    • 8th Jul 18, 11:55 AM
    I worked somewhere several years ago that had this policy. You couldn't start your holiday until your return to work form had been completed.
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 8th Jul 18, 12:01 PM
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    theoretica
    • #9
    • 8th Jul 18, 12:01 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Jul 18, 12:01 PM
    I understand one of the reasons for not permitting this is to prevent people 'extending' their holidays. But once a rule is introduced it can be applied regardless of whether the initial purpose behind it applies in this case or not.
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 8th Jul 18, 12:27 PM
    • 5,269 Posts
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    sangie595
    It's a common policy. Ask to see the policy - she may have to return to work if she wants paid holiday. As others have said, it's common because of the number of people going"sick" before or after holidays - or even during them! Another case of people paying the price for the few who abuse the system
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 8th Jul 18, 4:17 PM
    • 11,011 Posts
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    lincroft1710
    This was certainly the case in the Civil Service a few years ago and may still be current policy.
    • clairec79
    • By clairec79 8th Jul 18, 4:36 PM
    • 2,398 Posts
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    clairec79
    I'm fairly sure we don't have to physically return but we do have to phone and let them know that we are fit for work, and offically are back (and if you go back off sick after annual leave they can count it all as sick)
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 8th Jul 18, 5:08 PM
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    Savvy_Sue
    We do allow people to do this, and even to take a period of annual leave within a period of long-term sickness, but if this employer doesn't allow it, then this employer doesn't allow it!

    OP's wife should talk to her manager / HR and check what will happen on the single day she attends work, or what will happen if she is not fit to attend work.
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 3 shawls, 1 sweat band, 3 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 2 hats 2 balaclavas for seamen, 1 balaclava for myself ...
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    • Les79
    • By Les79 8th Jul 18, 5:48 PM
    • 434 Posts
    • 530 Thanks
    Les79
    A relaxing beach holiday eh?

    My first thought is; how can someone be so ill as to be unable to attend work the day before a holiday, but actually be well enough to go on holiday?! Miraculous recovery?

    I suppose the key question would be; Assuming your wife wasn't starting a beach holiday on, for example, July 10th then would she be well enough to return to work on July 10th?

    I doubt it very much to be honest, and you haven't really provided an explanation for that question (the employer has offered your wife one way of pretty much validating it, by suggesting that she comes into work the day before the holiday, July 9th in my example).

    That's the subjective part.

    The objective part is that you should refer to her handbook/contract. If it pretty much backs up this position then, for the most part, yes it is legal (you'd probably need a solicitor/ACAS guidance to challenge the terms of contract).
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 8th Jul 18, 8:03 PM
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    Savvy_Sue
    A relaxing beach holiday eh?

    My first thought is; how can someone be so ill as to be unable to attend work the day before a holiday, but actually be well enough to go on holiday?! Miraculous recovery?
    Originally posted by Les79
    Presumably it depends what's wrong with you?

    I have in fact gone straight from sick leave to annual leave and then returned to work on a phased return (short days). I'd had to cancel a holiday when I crocked my shoulder, and DH was in desperate need of some sunshine. I was signed off for eight weeks, no questions asked, at my first hospital appointment.

    Employer had no problem with me doing this, effectively I cancelled the initial period of holiday, then re-booked it for the end of my fit note.

    Stress, depression, post-op recovery are all situations where someone may indeed be fit enough to take a holiday before returning to work!
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 3 shawls, 1 sweat band, 3 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 2 hats 2 balaclavas for seamen, 1 balaclava for myself ...
    Current projects: Poppies, mohair cardigan pattern arrived and going strong!
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 8th Jul 18, 9:32 PM
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    sangie595
    Stress, depression, post-op recovery are all situations where someone may indeed be fit enough to take a holiday before returning to work!
    Originally posted by Savvy_Sue
    Whilst that is all very true, it is perhaps worth pointing out that nobody should go on holiday whilst on sick leave. If you wish to do so then you should (a) check with your doctor that they are willing to agree it, and (b) discuss it with your employer before you do so and before you book it. I know that you are suggesting that holiday might be after a period of sick leave - but going on holiday whilst on sick leave is something a lot of people think is their right. It isn't.

    One other thing that never ceases to amaze me - if you happen to be sick (or recently sick) then you need to carefully check holiday insurance and travel plans. For example, after surgery, there are recommended restrictions on air travel - ignore them at your peril. You should not travel long haul for six months after many surgeries; three months short haul. That stress that you had on your fit note - did you realise it's a mental health disorder, and most insurance companies specifically ask people to declare all metal health disorders?

    Last year I was in Cuba, and happened to meet a woman who, like me, had had a hip replacement. Only hers, unlike mine, was just over two months before she flew. She shouldn't have flown. Her entire insurance was invalidated by having done so, and if she had developed complications she'd have had no cover. She clearly had no idea that was the case - she hadn't even told them about the operation. Didn't think it mattered...
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 8th Jul 18, 10:01 PM
    • 39,024 Posts
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    Savvy_Sue
    Whilst that is all very true, it is perhaps worth pointing out that nobody should go on holiday whilst on sick leave. If you wish to do so then you should (a) check with your doctor that they are willing to agree it, and (b) discuss it with your employer before you do so and before you book it. I know that you are suggesting that holiday might be after a period of sick leave - but going on holiday whilst on sick leave is something a lot of people think is their right. It isn't.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Oh absolutely, and as I said, I booked the holiday while I was still off sick and it was agreed I should take it before I returned. For one thing, it reduced the amount of leave I'd be carrying forward into the new leave year once I was back ...

    One other thing that never ceases to amaze me - if you happen to be sick (or recently sick) then you need to carefully check holiday insurance and travel plans. For example, after surgery, there are recommended restrictions on air travel - ignore them at your peril. You should not travel long haul for six months after many surgeries; three months short haul. That stress that you had on your fit note - did you realise it's a mental health disorder, and most insurance companies specifically ask people to declare all metal health disorders?
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Good point. I had checked I'd be OK to fly in this case: my shoulder was not plastered and I was by then in reasonable shape. Actually I wasn't told NOT to fly at the time of the original holiday booking, but it was made clear to me that I'd still be in a lot of pain and it probably wouldn't be a lot of fun.

    DH was SO ready for a holiday I almost suggested he should go without me ... would not have gone down well if he'd even thought about doing so, and actually I needed him at home!

    Last year I was in Cuba, and happened to meet a woman who, like me, had had a hip replacement. Only hers, unlike mine, was just over two months before she flew. She shouldn't have flown. Her entire insurance was invalidated by having done so, and if she had developed complications she'd have had no cover. She clearly had no idea that was the case - she hadn't even told them about the operation. Didn't think it mattered...
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 3 shawls, 1 sweat band, 3 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 2 hats 2 balaclavas for seamen, 1 balaclava for myself ...
    Current projects: Poppies, mohair cardigan pattern arrived and going strong!
    • Les79
    • By Les79 8th Jul 18, 11:14 PM
    • 434 Posts
    • 530 Thanks
    Les79
    Whilst that is all very true, it is perhaps worth pointing out that nobody should go on holiday whilst on sick leave. If you wish to do so then you should (a) check with your doctor that they are willing to agree it, and (b) discuss it with your employer before you do so and before you book it. I know that you are suggesting that holiday might be after a period of sick leave - but going on holiday whilst on sick leave is something a lot of people think is their right. It isn't.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    I suspect that, unlike OP, Sue took the relevant precautions.

    I've had a brief look into OP's posting history and the only mention of a "wife" was a female "friend" a few years ago who has bipolar but works within the NHS in some capacity. If it is the same "friend" then they've also got a fairly bad attendance record at work.

    But it might not be that person!

    One other thing that never ceases to amaze me - if you happen to be sick (or recently sick) then you need to carefully check holiday insurance and travel plans. For example, after surgery, there are recommended restrictions on air travel - ignore them at your peril. You should not travel long haul for six months after many surgeries; three months short haul. That stress that you had on your fit note - did you realise it's a mental health disorder, and most insurance companies specifically ask people to declare all metal health disorders?
    Really good point like. I recently went on holiday, and gave some consideration to declaring a fit note about 12 months ago due to stress. My partner has quite a few medical issues and I had to help her declare all of them. She has two life-threatening conditions (asthma and a food allergy) and a few non life-threatening ones, but to be honest the insurance wasn't *that much more* for her. Peace of mind for declaring everything though!

    Last year I was in Cuba, and happened to meet a woman who, like me, had had a hip replacement. Only hers, unlike mine, was just over two months before she flew. She shouldn't have flown. Her entire insurance was invalidated by having done so, and if she had developed complications she'd have had no cover. She clearly had no idea that was the case - she hadn't even told them about the operation. Didn't think it mattered...
    Well, she may well have declared the condition to the insurer without your knowledge? But despite that, I appreciate what you said.

    My recent holiday; a young member of our party (mid 20s) DIDN'T have any travel insurance. It would have cost 5 if that. I was in shock like, to be fair life for most people is a steady decline to the abyss but occasionally you get a fast-track ticket and in those circumstances you need some sort of protection! This person also didn't have a valid EHIC card by the way (EU country)...

    It was pretty surreal! People sometimes don't actually respect their health (mental + physical)! And OP's wife does seem to fit this bracket... Too ill to work, but not ill enough to cancel a holiday (potentially like what Sue did on here). Really iffy, and I think you make a good side-point with the insurance aspect because, irrespective of whether or not the holiday period should be honored/considered as "sick", the OP's wife should be wary of the insurance policy they hold for this holiday.
    Last edited by Les79; 08-07-2018 at 11:21 PM.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 8th Jul 18, 11:33 PM
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    sangie595
    No, she hadn't declared it. She said she hadn't! She said she didn't even raise she had to. But I also did check - because of the severity of the operation and the link to DVT, medical advice is six months on long haul, unless travel is critical. I've just had ankle surgery and I am back there again - had to postpone my trip to Cuba (i have friends there) due in October because I'm advised not to travel long haul, so I'll be going in January instead.

    But actually, I find tourists amusing in a scary way. I think my all time favourite- running a close second to a group of Brits in the Dominican Republic complaining about the fact that there were(a) too many black people and that (b) they didn't approve of the hotel letting them stay as guests- was the group of Brits in Mexico who explained to me that they didn't take any anti malarial protections because "they were staying in a five star resort". When I pointed out that mosquitoes can't read, aren't class conscious, and have wings to fly over the walls, they seemed surprised!
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 9th Jul 18, 12:34 PM
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    Savvy_Sue
    And OP's wife does seem to fit this bracket... Too ill to work, but not ill enough to cancel a holiday (potentially like what Sue did on here). Really iffy, and I think you make a good side-point with the insurance aspect because, irrespective of whether or not the holiday period should be honored/considered as "sick", the OP's wife should be wary of the insurance policy they hold for this holiday.
    Originally posted by Les79
    Look, we don't know what's wrong with the OP's wife (and nor do we need to), but I don't think we should rush to judgement that they are 'too ill to work, but not ill enough to cancel a holiday'.

    Since their employer requires them to return to work before taking annual leave, then that is what they need to do. It's either that or cancel the holiday, or POSSIBLY remain on sick leave (and therefore sick pay) but ask if it's OK to still go away. I'd be surprised if the employer agreed, but who knows?

    They should also take advice from their GP, and declare to their insurer.

    However, if someone's on long term sick leave then they are accruing leave throughout that time. Allowing them to use some of it before they return to work may make sense for both employer and employee. In my case I'd have returned to work in a new leave year with nearly half a year's entitlement not taken. Once I was back at work, I wanted to be BACK, not taking leave every five minutes.
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 3 shawls, 1 sweat band, 3 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 2 hats 2 balaclavas for seamen, 1 balaclava for myself ...
    Current projects: Poppies, mohair cardigan pattern arrived and going strong!
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