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  • FIRST POST
    • miserable_ol_so_n_so
    • By miserable_ol_so_n_so 8th Jul 18, 8:54 AM
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    miserable_ol_so_n_so
    Manufacturer warranties.
    • #1
    • 8th Jul 18, 8:54 AM
    Manufacturer warranties. 8th Jul 18 at 8:54 AM
    Help please. I purchased a bathroom fan. It had a manufacturers 2 year warranty. I registered the warranty. The warranty specified return to manufacturer to claim. The fan failed within the warranty period so I returned it as per the terms. The manufacturer refused to replace it stating my contract was with the seller not with them!

    The seller has stopped trading.

    I want to take the manufacturer to the small claims court.

    Do I have a case against the manufacturer?
    ....Illegitimi non carborundum

    ...don't let the illegitimate ones grind you down....
Page 3
    • miserable_ol_so_n_so
    • By miserable_ol_so_n_so 8th Jul 18, 4:39 PM
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    miserable_ol_so_n_so

    The guarantee....by law no guarantee needs to be offered but if it is, then it is binding on the party offering it and under the terms that they offered.

    The problem you're going to have is with the passage of time and the trivial sum. If it cost 20 new then your claim would be considerably less than that. Spending 55+ on filing fee, hearing fee (and not accounting for lost wages, travelling expenses, enforcement fees etc) for a sum which could be 0-10 (especially with limited prospect of success) is absurd.

    Sometimes you just need to learn which battles to pick.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Thank you for the information. Please can you tell me why would my claim be considerably less? Surely it would be for the purchase of an equivalent fan. The same model is till being peddled.
    ....Illegitimi non carborundum

    ...don't let the illegitimate ones grind you down....
    • miserable_ol_so_n_so
    • By miserable_ol_so_n_so 8th Jul 18, 4:47 PM
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    miserable_ol_so_n_so
    Do you realise what your remedies under The Consumer Rights Act 2015 might be?

    It could either be a replacement, a repair or a refund.

    You can express a preference, but you cannot force a trader to perform a remedy that is disproportionate.

    In other words the seller can choose to make a refund. Such refund can be reduced to take account of the use you have had.
    I leave you to work out what proportion of the original 20 might be due.

    There is nothing in any legislation that says everything has to last six years.

    But forget all that, apparently you cannot even get in touch with the seller.

    It was the seller that sold the product - and that 'product' includes the manufacturer's guarantee.

    It is the seller's responsibility, and the seller's responsibility only.

    The manufacturer's responsibility is to whoever they sold the fan to - nothing more.

    The manufacturer owes you nothing.
    Please don't spend any more time and effort on this crusade.
    Originally posted by KeithP
    My problem is not that the product did not last for 6 years. My problem is that the manufacturer advertised it as guaranteed for 2 years and the terms were to return it to the manufacturer in case of failure within the guarantee period for repair or replacement. When I did so, he refused to take any responsibility and told me get in touch with the retailer. He then proceeded to destroy the item! He has not offered any refund or replacement. And what is galling is that he has probably hundreds of these fans lying around the warehouse. The model is still on sale! It is dishonest.
    Last edited by miserable_ol_so_n_so; 08-07-2018 at 4:57 PM.
    ....Illegitimi non carborundum

    ...don't let the illegitimate ones grind you down....
    • Fosterdog
    • By Fosterdog 8th Jul 18, 4:47 PM
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    Fosterdog
    Do you realise what your remedies under The Consumer Rights Act 2015 might be?

    It could either be a replacement, a repair or a refund.

    You can express a preference, but you cannot force a trader to perform a remedy that is disproportionate.

    In other words the seller can choose to make a refund. Such refund can be reduced to take account of the use you have had.
    I leave you to work out what proportion of the original 20 might be due.

    There is nothing in any legislation that says everything has to last six years.

    But forget all that, apparently you cannot even get in touch with the seller.

    It was the seller that sold the product - and that 'product' includes the manufacturer's guarantee.

    It is the seller's responsibility, and the seller's responsibility only.

    The manufacturer's responsibility is to whoever they sold the fan to - nothing more.

    The manufacturer owes you nothing.
    Please don't spend any more time and effort on this crusade.
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Don't forget though that this purchase was made before the CRA came into force so it would instead be covered by SoGA, it doesn't really make any difference to OPs entitlement here but they at least need to look into the correct legislation to decide whether or not they have a case.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Jul 18, 4:52 PM
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    KeithP
    Don't forget though that this purchase was made before the CRA came into force so it would instead be covered by SoGA, it doesn't really make any difference to OPs entitlement here but they at least need to look into the correct legislation to decide whether or not they have a case.
    Originally posted by Fosterdog
    Yes, thanks FD, I had overlooked that.
    .
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 8th Jul 18, 4:54 PM
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    unholyangel
    Thank you for the information. Please can you tell me why would my claim be considerably less? Surely it would be for the purchase of an equivalent fan. The same model is till being peddled.
    Originally posted by miserable_ol_so_n_so
    Because you did not lose a brand new fan. You lost a fan that was 1-2 years old. Furthermore, 20 is incredibly cheap for a fan. Therefore it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable if the expected lifespan was only 2-3 years.

    A new fan would be a betterment and that is not what damages are designed to do. Civil law is about restoring you to the position you would have been in (or as near as money can achieve it) had the breach (of contract/duty) not happened. Betterment goes further than restoring you and strays into the territory of penalising the wrongdoer - which is the purpose of criminal law, not civil.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 8th Jul 18, 4:55 PM
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    unholyangel
    Don't forget though that this purchase was made before the CRA came into force so it would instead be covered by SoGA, it doesn't really make any difference to OPs entitlement here but they at least need to look into the correct legislation to decide whether or not they have a case.
    Originally posted by Fosterdog
    Good point. Also reminds me of something I meant to ask the OP.


    OP.....you say the trader isn't trading anymore. Are they a limited company, a sole trader or something else? If it was a sole trader or if its a limited company that has not been struck off, you can still take action against them - whether they're actively trading right now or not.

    ETA: although that being said, you're going to have a hard time claiming from the retailer if you dont have the item - it would be for you to prove that the goods didn't conform as well as that the lack of conformity was inherent. I imagine that will be extremely difficult if not impossible without the goods in question.
    Last edited by unholyangel; 08-07-2018 at 4:59 PM.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Jul 18, 4:57 PM
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    KeithP
    When I did so, he refused to take any responsibility and told me get in touch with the retailer.
    Originally posted by miserable_ol_so_n_so
    OK, as I said, the manufacturer has done nothing wrong there.


    He then proceeded to destroy the item!
    Originally posted by miserable_ol_so_n_so
    Then perhaps your claim should be against the manufacturer for destroying your property?

    You sound like the sort of chap who would've filed everything, so look back through your archives for their letter asking you what should happen to your fan.

    Of course it may say in the manufacturer's guarantee something like "all returned items become the property of the manufacturer".
    Last edited by KeithP; 08-07-2018 at 5:02 PM.
    .
    • miserable_ol_so_n_so
    • By miserable_ol_so_n_so 8th Jul 18, 7:25 PM
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    miserable_ol_so_n_so
    Good point. Also reminds me of something I meant to ask the OP.


    OP.....you say the trader isn't trading anymore. Are they a limited company, a sole trader or something else? If it was a sole trader or if its a limited company that has not been struck off, you can still take action against them - whether they're actively trading right now or not.

    ETA: although that being said, you're going to have a hard time claiming from the retailer if you dont have the item - it would be for you to prove that the goods didn't conform as well as that the lack of conformity was inherent. I imagine that will be extremely difficult if not impossible without the goods in question.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    Thanks. It was a sole trader. As for producing the goods, the manufacturer dumped it.

    I am inclined to take action against the manufacturer because I complied with the terms of the guarantee. It cost me postage too. He has not made any offer of anything other than to acknowledge receipt of the fan along with the guarantee certificate and pointing out to me that I had a contract with the seller and asking me what they should do with the fan. I informed them to keep hold of it until the matter was resolved. When I informed him that I had not had any reply, he told me they could not help me any further and they had destroyed the fan! They have made no effort to make me an offer, not even of 0.10 pence. What I want is for them to honour the guarantee, which I believe was at their discretion to repair or replace the fan or refund . If the court then decides that I am only due 0.10, so be it.
    My final question is, if this were to happen, will the court award my court costs?
    ....Illegitimi non carborundum

    ...don't let the illegitimate ones grind you down....
    • miserable_ol_so_n_so
    • By miserable_ol_so_n_so 8th Jul 18, 7:37 PM
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    miserable_ol_so_n_so
    OK, as I said, the manufacturer has done nothing wrong there.



    Then perhaps your claim should be against the manufacturer for destroying your property?

    You sound like the sort of chap who would've filed everything, so look back through your archives for their letter asking you what should happen to your fan.

    Of course it may say in the manufacturer's guarantee something like "all returned items become the property of the manufacturer".
    Originally posted by KeithP
    I was asked what I wanted done with the fan and I said to hold on to it until the problem was resolved. Yes I do have all the emails and yes I do file everything.
    ....Illegitimi non carborundum

    ...don't let the illegitimate ones grind you down....
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Jul 18, 7:40 PM
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    KeithP
    I was asked what I wanted done with the fan and I said to hold on to it until the problem was resolved.
    Originally posted by miserable_ol_so_n_so
    And then did nothing, for whatever reason, for four years.

    Is that right?
    .
    • waamo
    • By waamo 8th Jul 18, 7:45 PM
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    waamo
    Thanks. It was a sole trader. As for producing the goods, the manufacturer dumped it.

    I am inclined to take action against the manufacturer because I complied with the terms of the guarantee. It cost me postage too. He has not made any offer of anything other than to acknowledge receipt of the fan along with the guarantee certificate and pointing out to me that I had a contract with the seller and asking me what they should do with the fan. I informed them to keep hold of it until the matter was resolved. When I informed him that I had not had any reply, he told me they could not help me any further and they had destroyed the fan! They have made no effort to make me an offer, not even of 0.10 pence. What I want is for them to honour the guarantee, which I believe was at their discretion to repair or replace the fan or refund . If the court then decides that I am only due 0.10, so be it.
    My final question is, if this were to happen, will the court award my court costs?
    Originally posted by miserable_ol_so_n_so
    In answer to your "final" question it is likely the court will dismiss your claim without hearing it. You also risk losing the filing fee.

    I can see this dragging on for 10 pages of "what if" and "yes but".
    This space for hire.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 8th Jul 18, 8:05 PM
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    unholyangel
    My final question is, if this were to happen, will the court award my court costs?
    Originally posted by miserable_ol_so_n_so
    Sorry, the only person who can answer that with any degree of certainty is the judge hearing the facts of the case as it is at their discretion.

    I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone spend the hours required preparing and attending, pay out for the filing & hearing fee as well as risking having to pay the other sides costs all for the maximum "profit" of 20. But of course it would be coming out of your pocket so you're free to proceed as you wish.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • miserable_ol_so_n_so
    • By miserable_ol_so_n_so 8th Jul 18, 8:34 PM
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    miserable_ol_so_n_so
    Sorry, the only person who can answer that with any degree of certainty is the judge hearing the facts of the case as it is at their discretion.

    I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone spend the hours required preparing and attending, pay out for the filing & hearing fee as well as risking having to pay the other sides costs all for the maximum "profit" of 20. But of course it would be coming out of your pocket so you're free to proceed as you wish.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    What costs can I have to pay the other side?
    ....Illegitimi non carborundum

    ...don't let the illegitimate ones grind you down....
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Jul 18, 8:53 PM
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    KeithP
    What costs can I have to pay the other side?
    Originally posted by miserable_ol_so_n_so
    They could be substantial if your conduct is deemed 'unreasonable'.
    .
    • miserable_ol_so_n_so
    • By miserable_ol_so_n_so 8th Jul 18, 9:00 PM
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    miserable_ol_so_n_so
    This is all very depressing. These people are crooks and it looks like nothing can be done about them. Much was made about the small claims court and yet it seems like the court is working for the other side. After all, if the manufacturer knows that this small claim will be rejected by the court, simply because it is small, why should he care? He can carry on in this way for ever, never honouring any guarantee. The time lapse is irrelevant. The situation was created well within the guarantee period. He had no intention of honouring any guarantee. What about my postage costs? What was the point of requiring me to post it further wasting more of my money?
    ....Illegitimi non carborundum

    ...don't let the illegitimate ones grind you down....
    • miserable_ol_so_n_so
    • By miserable_ol_so_n_so 8th Jul 18, 9:09 PM
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    miserable_ol_so_n_so
    They could be substantial if your conduct is deemed 'unreasonable'.
    Originally posted by KeithP
    What is unreasonable about making a claim under warranty, well within the warranty period? It is within the warranty period that the manufacturer declined to honour the guarantee. That is when the problem got created. Surely that is being unreasonable.

    I am agitating about it now, 4 years later due to problems I have had to contend with. If the manufacturer had been reasonable and honoured the guarantee way back then, or if the supplier had been reasonable and made amends, the problem would have been solved. Who is the unreasonable party? How can anyone making a claim under warranty be deemed to be unreasonable but a manufacturer blatantly not honouring a warranty be deemed a perfectly reasonable party?
    ....Illegitimi non carborundum

    ...don't let the illegitimate ones grind you down....
    • Greta Sharbo
    • By Greta Sharbo 8th Jul 18, 9:35 PM
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    Greta Sharbo
    What is unreasonable about making a claim under warranty, well within the warranty period? It is within the warranty period that the manufacturer declined to honour the guarantee. That is when the problem got created. Surely that is being unreasonable.

    I am agitating about it now, 4 years later due to problems I have had to contend with. If the manufacturer had been reasonable and honoured the guarantee way back then, or if the supplier had been reasonable and made amends, the problem would have been solved. Who is the unreasonable party? How can anyone making a claim under warranty be deemed to be unreasonable but a manufacturer blatantly not honouring a warranty be deemed a perfectly reasonable party?
    Originally posted by miserable_ol_so_n_so
    if your conduct is deemed 'unreasonable'


    Only the court can decide that. It sounds like you have decided you have a case so why not crack on and let us know what happens.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Jul 18, 10:13 PM
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    KeithP
    What is unreasonable... blah, blah, blah...
    Originally posted by miserable_ol_so_n_so
    If, and it's a big if, this ever gets to a court, then as Greta Sharbo says, it is up to the court to decide that.

    The court won't decide that unless the Defendant claims extra costs due to your unreasonableness in conducting the claim.

    Waamo has already told you the more likely outcome.

    The level of your agitation won't be taken into consideration.

    Have you considered asking your Member of Parliament for support?
    .
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 8th Jul 18, 10:16 PM
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    unholyangel
    This is all very depressing. These people are crooks and it looks like nothing can be done about them. Much was made about the small claims court and yet it seems like the court is working for the other side. After all, if the manufacturer knows that this small claim will be rejected by the court, simply because it is small, why should he care? He can carry on in this way for ever, never honouring any guarantee. The time lapse is irrelevant. The situation was created well within the guarantee period. He had no intention of honouring any guarantee. What about my postage costs? What was the point of requiring me to post it further wasting more of my money?
    Originally posted by miserable_ol_so_n_so
    The 55 you would pay in filing & hearing fees isn't actually what it costs though. The judge alone will be getting paid 60+ an hour. Then you have all the other court workers, administration costs and the running costs of the building itself.

    Would you be as willing to take action if you were having to pay actual costs (which would likely exceed 200 an hour) for an unspecified number of hours (there have been cases where they spent more than an entire day debating what entity the defendant was as it would affect the extent of their liability)?

    Plus if their calculations are off (expected income from fees versus actual costs) and the courts are in deficit, that is funded by the public purse. As a taxpayer, would you be happy for the courts to allow someone to cost the public purse maybe 5k all for the sake of a fiver?
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • Money_Grabber13579
    • By Money_Grabber13579 8th Jul 18, 11:47 PM
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    Money_Grabber13579
    The school holidays have started in certain parts of the country...
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