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  • FIRST POST
    • unit_g83
    • By unit_g83 7th Jul 18, 9:56 PM
    • 23Posts
    • 15Thanks
    unit_g83
    CPM refused to cancel ticket for my own parking space
    • #1
    • 7th Jul 18, 9:56 PM
    CPM refused to cancel ticket for my own parking space 7th Jul 18 at 9:56 PM
    Dear All,

    Firstly thank you for taking the time to read it. I turned to this forum because common sense has simply gone out of the window with the above operator.

    A family member visiting from out of town parked in my legally owned parking bay at the block of flats I am in. I purchased the parking space and have deeds to show legal ownership for the next century or so. I do not pay (to my knowledge) ground rent for this parking space (only for my flat).

    It seems that my family member, for whatever reason and in their hast to get out of the car did place a permit in the window (the permit simply shows the bay number and is issued by the above operator) but as they have a small child and probably with the excitement from my little niece in visiting her uncle, the permit somehow slid away from display.

    Long story short, I wrote to CPM to advise them it was a family car, that I own the parking space, and that they should cancel the PCN.

    Low and behold, they have refused to, citing that a permit must always be display and that only the driver or keeper of the car can appeal.

    Seriously - to me this makes no sense. I am the parking space owner?

    What do I do now? I have been given two weeks to pay in full.

    Thank you again for reading. I decided to post as the above situation where a person that is appealing also owns the space wasn't listed or even close to what I had read in the newbie thread (unless I missed it?)
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Jul 18, 10:01 PM
    • 61,506 Posts
    • 74,387 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 7th Jul 18, 10:01 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Jul 18, 10:01 PM
    Why have you accepted a permit scheme relating to your owned bay? Reject it.

    Send a letter to UKCPM with a copy of your title deeds to that space, telling them that every time they set foot in your bay to touch a car or your land, this will be an act of trespass, as was the time they applied a PCN to car reg xxxxxxxx recently. Tell them that you will seek an injunction and then sue them for the cost, if they do not:

    - cancel that PCN
    - never apply a PCN to any car in your space, permit or no permit
    - keep off your land in future/for ever

    Return the permit and say you only took it as a matter of courtesy and never as a matter of any agreed contract, indeed you have never authorised any ex-clamper thug firm akin to UKCPM to maraud among cars on your land, and you never will.

    I have been given two weeks to pay in full.
    No you haven't, it's not your PCN. Are you saying that UKCPM have offered YOU the IAS stage, even though you are not liable? LOL. Might be worth an appeal to the IAS, this one, as you are not liable in law.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 07-07-2018 at 10:05 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 7th Jul 18, 10:02 PM
    • 1,775 Posts
    • 2,243 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    • #3
    • 7th Jul 18, 10:02 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Jul 18, 10:02 PM
    they are operating a business on your land without permission , send them an invoice for use of your land

    PS : Permit , its your bloody land!
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Jul 18, 10:04 PM
    • 19,399 Posts
    • 30,641 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #4
    • 7th Jul 18, 10:04 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Jul 18, 10:04 PM
    I have been given two weeks to pay in full.
    Surely it's your visitor being pursued here? If you are the de facto landowner of the parking space and the PPC does not have your permission to enforce a parking regime on your land, then the DVLA must be involved as the PPC had no contract to manage your car parking space nor have any reasonable cause to access the registered keeper's details.

    But from what you've so far written, this isn't your case to deal with.
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • unit_g83
    • By unit_g83 7th Jul 18, 10:17 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    unit_g83
    • #5
    • 7th Jul 18, 10:17 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Jul 18, 10:17 PM
    Dear all,

    Thank you for your responses. My apologies, I have missed out some information which may be helpful here.

    When I purchased my flat (it's my first ever owned property) it was sold to me by the previous owner along with the parking space. Both properties (my flat and the parking space) have separate deeds for leasehold.

    Upon moving in last year, I noticed the land was controlled (not owned!) by CPM. They have a couple of signs in the car park which is shared with several dozen other residents (all of which also own their parking space, as these spaces absolutely can not be rented - only purchased).

    I think the idea from the original property developer was to have a PPC on-site to protect residents parking bays from any random person (i.e. non-resident) coming in and sneakily parking in a secure location as they please. The reality is that I haven't ever seen or heard of this happening. But I have heard of residents getting PCNs.

    I haven't ever seen a contract between CPM and the original land owner (I am now the title deed owner).

    I have no choice but to right back to them. In my original letter, I stressed I am the legal parking bay owner, the car was a family members car visiting me, and that I would accept no other outcome than have CPM cancel the PCN given the facts I presented to them.

    So, based on the above, am I missing something there? Am I being dense about something? As far as I can see, I am still in the 'right' and they are in the 'wrong'?
    Last edited by unit_g83; 07-07-2018 at 10:20 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Jul 18, 10:20 PM
    • 61,506 Posts
    • 74,387 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 7th Jul 18, 10:20 PM
    • #6
    • 7th Jul 18, 10:20 PM
    My advice is unchanged.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • unit_g83
    • By unit_g83 7th Jul 18, 10:32 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    unit_g83
    • #7
    • 7th Jul 18, 10:32 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Jul 18, 10:32 PM
    My advice is unchanged.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Thank you coupon-mad, this genuinely makes sense to me. I just can't see how CPM don't see that...

    I'll update here for everyone's benefit as when things progress

    kr,

    unit_g83
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 8th Jul 18, 8:39 AM
    • 3,178 Posts
    • 4,877 Thanks
    fisherjim
    • #8
    • 8th Jul 18, 8:39 AM
    • #8
    • 8th Jul 18, 8:39 AM
    Thank you coupon-mad, this genuinely makes sense to me. I just can't see how CPM don't see that...

    I'll update here for everyone's benefit as when things progress

    kr,

    unit_g83
    Originally posted by unit_g83

    Of course they see that, but admitting that would not be lucrative and would stop others falling for their scam!
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 8th Jul 18, 8:53 AM
    • 9,996 Posts
    • 9,811 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #9
    • 8th Jul 18, 8:53 AM
    • #9
    • 8th Jul 18, 8:53 AM
    Have you read this

    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?377246-UKPC-liable-for-trespass-**SUCCESS**

    you could be on a nice little earner here.

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    Have you see thishttp://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    Last edited by The Deep; 08-07-2018 at 8:57 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 8th Jul 18, 9:41 AM
    • 37,391 Posts
    • 84,262 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    You should be going at this with all guns blazing, as should all the other residents who own parking spaces.

    You should complain to your MP about this unregulated scam, contact local and national press, and trading standards, possibly even the police as fraud is being committed.

    Cut the permit in half and send it back with the letter as advised by Coupon-mad.

    The vehicle keeper should send an SAR and a complaint to the DVLA that their personal data has been obtained without reasonable cause, backed up by a letter from you, the landowner stating that you own the land and have not given permission for a business to be run on your property, and without your knowledge. Include the land registry data to back this up.

    You really should be kicking up a massive stink about this.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 08-07-2018 at 10:25 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • peter_the_piper
    • By peter_the_piper 8th Jul 18, 10:53 AM
    • 26,291 Posts
    • 35,492 Thanks
    peter_the_piper
    Thank you coupon-mad, this genuinely makes sense to me. I just can't see how CPM don't see that...
    Originally posted by unit_g83
    They do see it but they are not going to admit it to you when there is the chance you may cave in and pay.
    I'd rather be an Optimist and be proved wrong than a Pessimist and be proved right.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 8th Jul 18, 11:46 AM
    • 8,441 Posts
    • 11,102 Thanks
    beamerguy
    UKCPM do not offer car park management as their title
    suggest. They treat the sites they stick their signs on
    only as a cash cow .... a scam

    Depending what the DVLA say, depends if they are on
    the side of a scammer.

    If it goes all the way, no doubt this scammers favourite
    legal will come into play. They are Pinky and Perky
    known as the incompetent Gladstones solicitors

    Such cases will result in Gladstones getting another
    whooping in court and you claiming costs against them
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Jul 18, 6:00 PM
    • 61,506 Posts
    • 74,387 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You have to understand the mindset of any ex-clamper, is not 'customer service' orientated, nor ethical. You can't talk sense to them and have a conversation like you could with a normal firm.

    You could argue till you are blue in the face but the industry are scammers.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 8th Jul 18, 8:30 PM
    • 4,268 Posts
    • 6,057 Thanks
    Half_way
    Upon moving in last year, I noticed the land was controlled (not owned!) by CPM. They have a couple of signs in the car park which is shared with several dozen other residents
    You appear to be missing the obvious, CPM do not control the land, the landowner does, and in this case thats you.
    Who allowed, or said that CPM could operate their business on your land?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • unit_g83
    • By unit_g83 9th Jul 18, 7:53 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    unit_g83
    You appear to be missing the obvious, CPM do not control the land, the landowner does, and in this case thats you.
    Who allowed, or said that CPM could operate their business on your land?
    Originally posted by Half_way
    I am unsure who allowed them to 'manage' our land. I have a group chat going with residents of two blocks here and one has stated that our property management and maintenance firm decided to use CPM.

    If that's the case, I will be contacting the management company to clarify and at first instance to have them cancel the PCN for my peace of mind. If they refuse (which hopefully they do not) then I will certainly be sending out a horrible letter and CC'ing in a number of individuals, including my local MP.

    Once again, thank you everyone!!
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 9th Jul 18, 8:43 AM
    • 3,386 Posts
    • 4,951 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    If that's the case, I will be contacting the management company to clarify and at first instance to have them cancel the PCN for my peace of mind. If they refuse (which hopefully they do not) then I will certainly be sending out a horrible letter and CC'ing in a number of individuals, including my local MP
    Originally posted by unit_g83
    They will refuse. They will wash their hands of the matter, claiming all sorts of nonsense allowing them (a) to hand out "fines" and (b) absolve themselves of all responsibility. Don't bother phoning them. You will get nowhere. Do everything in writing. Remind them of your ownership of the space, and that CPM - THEIR agent - are trespassing on your property and that THEY (the management company) will be held liable for the actions of their agent.

    It's going to need more from you than a few snotty letters. Don't just go off on a rant, it will achieve nothing. As has been indicated by several posters, you need to get "legal" with them, citing the legal reasons why they can't do what they are doing and the legal recourse you will take.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 9th Jul 18, 8:44 AM
    • 4,268 Posts
    • 6,057 Thanks
    Half_way
    Before you contact anyone, post it here first.
    You must say the right things to the management company, and you must make then know that you object to a private unregulated company using your property as its own mmoney making space.
    Before you do, check everything, and check again.
    You must be firm with any management company, and you need to say the right things, never phone always email or write, and post on here first to avoid shooting yourself in the foot
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 9th Jul 18, 8:45 AM
    • 3,268 Posts
    • 5,475 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    When I purchased my flat (it's my first ever owned property) it was sold to me by the previous owner along with the parking space. Both properties (my flat and the parking space) have separate deeds for leasehold.
    As a matter of interest, if the lease for the parking space is separate, what does that lease say with regards to third party rights.

    Presume that the first lease (for the flat) says nothing about parking or refers to the second lease in any way - but check. You have two separate contracts which may or may not be related - though you might be able to imply they are.

    Lastly who is the head leaseholder/freeholder of the parking space. Presume it is either the builder or someone they have sold the freehold too.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • unit_g83
    • By unit_g83 9th Jul 18, 1:00 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    unit_g83
    Wow, thank you for all the support everyone!

    This is the letter I have ready to send to CPM. It's unedited - I have left some snide remarks in there so you can see how it was originally written. I have left out identifying detail as I am aware that sometimes CPM might be on these forums

    ----------
    Dear xxxx

    Ref xxxx

    In response to your letter dated xxxxxxx, it is clear that common sense is something that is not found at UK PCM. If it were, we would not be having any form of written correspondence to each other and CPM would have already cancelled the PCN issued to our family car on my legally owned parking bay. Please be advised of the following:

    I, xxxxxxxxx, am the legal owner of Parking Bay xxxxx in the underground car park of xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. UK CPM is not the owner of parking bay 368.

    UK PCM maintain no right over my legal property, nor have the right to enforce any PCN on my property. I have not signed a contract with UK CPM granting them full rights to manage my parking bay. The scheme UK CPM purportedly look to enforce is for the protection of residents of xxxxxxxxxxxx. In lieu of this fact, and as stated above, UK CPM are harassing me with especially after I have advised in writing that the car is a family car parked with my permission on my land.

    From here forth, should any representative of UK CPM enter the marked lines of Bay xxxxx in order to apply a PCN to any car parked in that bay, it will be counted as an act of trespass. UK CPM do not have my permission to enter my legal property.

    As UK CPM have previously entered my property without my permission, I shall seek an injunction against UK CPM and sue for all legal costs unless UK CPM ancel PCN xxxxxx issued against car registration xxxxxx with immediate effect.

    The permit in my possession, issued by UK CPM, is held as a gesture of courtesy rather than a matter of a signed contract between myself and UK CPM.

    I look forward to your response, and of course, to UK CPM cancelling the PCN.


    Cc Lukhbir Singh Gohler, UK CPM
    James Randall, UK CPM
    Dr David Offord MP, Hendon
    'Property management company'
    • unit_g83
    • By unit_g83 9th Jul 18, 1:01 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    unit_g83
    As a matter of interest, if the lease for the parking space is separate, what does that lease say with regards to third party rights.

    Presume that the first lease (for the flat) says nothing about parking or refers to the second lease in any way - but check. You have two separate contracts which may or may not be related - though you might be able to imply they are.

    Lastly who is the head leaseholder/freeholder of the parking space. Presume it is either the builder or someone they have sold the freehold too.
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    I am the leaseholder, but the freehold has been sold on from developer to a third party - adriatic land (they are known for buying up freeholds). I must find the deeds and lease details. It's stored securely somewhere but just need to find where...
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