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  • FIRST POST
    • HappyUser
    • By HappyUser 7th Jul 18, 7:06 PM
    • 70Posts
    • 1Thanks
    HappyUser
    Complaint for Visa and Halifax
    • #1
    • 7th Jul 18, 7:06 PM
    Complaint for Visa and Halifax 7th Jul 18 at 7:06 PM
    Hello!


    I have made a couple of transactions with some dodgy merchants. While legitimate companies are happy to refund you if you are not happy, these will do whatever it takes so that you don't get a refund, even though their products/services are crap.


    Halifax particularly has been extremely unhelpful when pursuing a refund on your debit card. You are pretty much left alone and they often blame Visa's terms and conditions.


    In contrast, Paypal or Amazon (not Ebay), have been extremely supportive to unhappy customers.


    Is there a bank and debit card that can offer a service on par with Paypal in terms of refunds?


    I am far from a scammer consumer who rips off businesses, but at the same time, I don't want to feel like an idiot for paying and receiving crap, with no chance of refund.


    Thanks!
Page 1
    • masonic
    • By masonic 7th Jul 18, 7:14 PM
    • 9,823 Posts
    • 7,033 Thanks
    masonic
    • #2
    • 7th Jul 18, 7:14 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Jul 18, 7:14 PM
    Why not use a credit card?
    • HappyUser
    • By HappyUser 7th Jul 18, 7:32 PM
    • 70 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    HappyUser
    • #3
    • 7th Jul 18, 7:32 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Jul 18, 7:32 PM
    Why not use a credit card?
    Originally posted by masonic

    The problem is that some times there is a fee to use credit cards or they are not accepted at all!
    • masonic
    • By masonic 7th Jul 18, 7:38 PM
    • 9,823 Posts
    • 7,033 Thanks
    masonic
    • #4
    • 7th Jul 18, 7:38 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Jul 18, 7:38 PM
    The problem is that some times there is a fee to use credit cards or they are not accepted at all!
    Originally posted by HappyUser
    All fees for using credit cards are now banned. Any merchant charging them runs the risk of having them reclaimed at a later date by the customer. I've never encountered an online business that refuses credit cards AND options like paypal (funded by a credit card).
    • bluffer
    • By bluffer 7th Jul 18, 9:14 PM
    • 477 Posts
    • 623 Thanks
    bluffer
    • #5
    • 7th Jul 18, 9:14 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Jul 18, 9:14 PM
    you make a transaction with a dodgy merchant and want the bank to bail you out? why should they?


    its not fraud, you made the decision to make the transaction. if you have raised a dispute, the bank are only a middleman and they have to follow rules as well. if the company says the transaction is correct and the debit should stand the bank have done all they can. its then a civil case between you and the company.


    paypal/ebay better than banks? not by my experience and why i gave up ebay.
    2018 wins - 1 pair flip flops 1 bottle of ribena.

    better than nothing?
    • Terry Towelling
    • By Terry Towelling 7th Jul 18, 9:28 PM
    • 575 Posts
    • 486 Thanks
    Terry Towelling
    • #6
    • 7th Jul 18, 9:28 PM
    • #6
    • 7th Jul 18, 9:28 PM
    The argument that credit/debit card providers should help get you a refund following contractual issues is a moot point. It can be argued that they are only a payment method (like cash) and they should not get involved in contractual issues between buyer and seller. Certainly businesses might take a lot of convincing to accept cards if they thought they could be charged back willy-nilly on a Cardholder's say so.

    There is of course nothing to stop the card issuers accepting what you say and paying you out - except that they'd probably have to write-off the debt themselves - which they won't want to do.

    Ignoring S75 of the CCA for the time being, the card companies do have sets of rules that can allow them to transfer debts back to the sellers bankers in certain well-defined situations. UK Visa and MasterCard branded products have slightly different rules to each other but they are broadly similar - and it doesn't (usually) matter whether they are on debit or credit cards. Overseas rules vary slightly.

    One thing the rules will require before allowing a bank to exercise a 'consumer-protection' type Chargeback is evidence of the claim and evidence that you have tried to resolve the matter with the seller - which may include you returning the goods to the seller first. The sorts of situation where they may be prepared to help you might be where goods haven't arrived, or are not as described or are defective in some way. Remember, though the seller does have the 'right to reply' and the debt may come winging its way back to you.

    Using a credit card can potentially add another layer of protection from S75 of the CCA.

    The way you describe your situation is that the goods received are substandard in some way which, on the face of it, isn't something that your card issuer could legitimately recover from the seller's bankers. You do, of course have recourse to the law to attempt recovery but that is onerous, potentially expensive and may not get you anywhere either.

    Certainly if you are charged a fee for card usage you should complain to your card issuer who will refer the matter to the sellers bank for dealing.

    Sorry I couldn't give you anything more encouraging.
    • Flobberchops
    • By Flobberchops 7th Jul 18, 10:43 PM
    • 804 Posts
    • 631 Thanks
    Flobberchops
    • #7
    • 7th Jul 18, 10:43 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Jul 18, 10:43 PM
    If you've made a purchase and not received the goods/services paid for, then you're entitled to a refund. Usually the vendor is the first port of call to go about resolving the issue, but if they can't or won't help then your bank should log a payment dispute on your behalf.
    I work for a UK bank, but any comments made on this forum are solely my personal opinion. Caveat Emptor!
    • HappyUser
    • By HappyUser 7th Jul 18, 11:21 PM
    • 70 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    HappyUser
    • #8
    • 7th Jul 18, 11:21 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Jul 18, 11:21 PM
    If you've made a purchase and not received the goods/services paid for, then you're entitled to a refund. Usually the vendor is the first port of call to go about resolving the issue, but if they can't or won't help then your bank should log a payment dispute on your behalf.
    Originally posted by Flobberchops

    I know, but Halifax blame Visa that they cannot do anything. If you have a problem with a seller via Paypal, you file a dispute and they value customers than dodgy sellers.
    • Armorica
    • By Armorica 7th Jul 18, 11:39 PM
    • 738 Posts
    • 552 Thanks
    Armorica
    • #9
    • 7th Jul 18, 11:39 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Jul 18, 11:39 PM
    I'm not sure you're comparing similar services.

    Paypal provide additional protection.

    If you want protection against 'dodgy' then you need to use a credit card not a debit card with a bank.

    The Visa rules define situations when chargebacks can and can't be made. And your circumstances may not meet them.

    Do you need to re-think which merchants you deal with in the first place?
    • HappyUser
    • By HappyUser 8th Jul 18, 12:05 AM
    • 70 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    HappyUser
    Can I use a credit card to completely replace my debit card?
    Ie, I can use it at the takeaway, tube, online, etc?
    • Armorica
    • By Armorica 8th Jul 18, 12:10 AM
    • 738 Posts
    • 552 Thanks
    Armorica
    Can I use a credit card to completely replace my debit card?
    Ie, I can use it at the takeaway, tube, online, etc?
    Originally posted by HappyUser
    Pretty much yes?

    There are some (minor) differences and acceptances and fees that don't really matter for day to day use.

    It's better practice to have more than one card - say a visa debit with one bank and a mastercard credit with another. So if one network goes down, you would still be ok.

    Most people would tend to use credit cards only for larger purchases or online where they'd like the extra protection. Unless you're very well trained at paying it off each month.

    Although plenty of takeaways will still only take cash...
    • HappyUser
    • By HappyUser 8th Jul 18, 12:11 AM
    • 70 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    HappyUser
    Another major difference I found is that it's not free to withdraw money from ATM!
    • Carrot007
    • By Carrot007 8th Jul 18, 12:19 AM
    • 1,600 Posts
    • 1,336 Thanks
    Carrot007
    Another major difference I found is that it's not free to withdraw money from ATM!
    Originally posted by HappyUser

    Well done your read the terms and conditions.


    Or at least I hope you did before doing something that silly.
    • Armorica
    • By Armorica 8th Jul 18, 12:42 AM
    • 738 Posts
    • 552 Thanks
    Armorica
    Another major difference I found is that it's not free to withdraw money from ATM!
    Originally posted by HappyUser
    Well, that's because you're not withdrawing from your current account but instead from a credit facility which typically carries a cash advance fee. (And you don't need additional protection for cash withdrawal..unless you're planning to de-fraud yourself).

    Some convenience ATMs will also charge for both debit and credit card ATMs.
    • Emily Joy
    • By Emily Joy 8th Jul 18, 5:13 AM
    • 187 Posts
    • 76 Thanks
    Emily Joy
    Hello!


    I have made a couple of transactions with some dodgy merchants. While legitimate companies are happy to refund you if you are not happy, these will do whatever it takes so that you don't get a refund, even though their products/services are crap.


    Halifax particularly has been extremely unhelpful when pursuing a refund on your debit card. You are pretty much left alone and they often blame Visa's terms and conditions.


    In contrast, Paypal or Amazon (not Ebay), have been extremely supportive to unhappy customers.


    Is there a bank and debit card that can offer a service on par with Paypal in terms of refunds?


    I am far from a scammer consumer who rips off businesses, but at the same time, I don't want to feel like an idiot for paying and receiving crap, with no chance of refund.


    Thanks!
    Originally posted by HappyUser

    The sort of protection you want is called "insurance" and comes with American Express credit cards, for in instance, American Express Preferred Rewards Gold does have it. It is not so widely accepted as Visa/Mastercard, but does offer a piece of mind in case something you bought turned out to be a crap.


    In addition, whenever you buy something online, there is a 14 days return period, which should be enough to find out that the goods are not as good as the seller claimed.



    As for the tube/takeaways - I doubt you can get a refund from them anyway (unless a takeaway meal made you sick).
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 8th Jul 18, 8:21 AM
    • 20,993 Posts
    • 16,772 Thanks
    agrinnall
    Stop buying from dodgy traders is the obvious answer.
    • Space Orbit
    • By Space Orbit 8th Jul 18, 11:58 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Space Orbit
    In the past I have worked for a bank processing charge backs.

    They have to abide by lengthy Visa/Mastercard regulations - they are very clear but can be open to a little interpretaion.

    A chargeback is seen as a last resort when a customer has failed to resolve an issue themselves. It would be very unusual to see more than one or two chargeback requests on an account every 4 or 5 years.

    Between me and my partner we have only requested a total of 2 in the past 15-20 years.

    In my experience requesting several chargebacks was highly likely to be reported/detected by the bank's fraud team (and possibly be picked up by Visa/Mastercard).

    It could show, at best, you are a risk to the bank - e.g if you are not receiving goods, how sure can the bank be that you will receive a replacement card etc. or if, as your post suggests you continue to use questionable websites, it shows little concern for cyber security. Or at worst, particularly if several merchants dispute the chargebacks, then you would be seen as a potential scammer.

    You could find your account restricted/ closed and potentially a CIFAS marker on your credit file depending on the scale of the issue.

    As previous posters have said the answer is to only buy from reputable websites - I can't understand why you would want the hassle of thinking you might have to request a chargeback.
    • masonic
    • By masonic 8th Jul 18, 12:11 PM
    • 9,823 Posts
    • 7,033 Thanks
    masonic
    Another major difference I found is that it's not free to withdraw money from ATM!
    Originally posted by HappyUser
    Well of course you wouldn't use a credit card for that (within the UK). The credit card is for making transactions with "dodgy mechants" where you might need to dispute them if you don't receive the goods. If you don't receive your cash at a cashpoint that's a whole different process to go through and is not subject to the difficulties you've experienced with your dodgy online shopping.

    Halifax tends to issue Mastercard credit cards and in my experience are a lot more helpful when getting involved in disputes. They have a vested interest in you spending on your credit card as much a possible, whereas debit card spending in general is less lucrative and there is less incentive to step in. But as others have said, disputes should be pretty rare - you'd maybe have one or two in a decade.
    • shortcrust
    • By shortcrust 8th Jul 18, 12:23 PM
    • 2,105 Posts
    • 3,218 Thanks
    shortcrust
    Of course Amazon and Paypal work differently. They have a relationship and an agreement with the seller. Visa and Halifax don't.

    As others have said, don't use dodgy sellers. Take some responsibility rather than expecting to be bailed out.
    • Pun
    • By Pun 8th Jul 18, 3:08 PM
    • 685 Posts
    • 570 Thanks
    Pun
    Can I use a credit card to completely replace my debit card?
    Ie, I can use it at the takeaway, tube, online, etc?
    Originally posted by HappyUser
    S75 protection only kicks in where the total cost of the item/service is at least 100. How often does your tube journey cost that?
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