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    • ric1982
    • By ric1982 7th Jul 18, 1:49 PM
    • 190Posts
    • 31Thanks
    ric1982
    Building over agreement and extension
    • #1
    • 7th Jul 18, 1:49 PM
    Building over agreement and extension 7th Jul 18 at 1:49 PM
    Hi,

    I was wondering if someone could help me here. I have searched here and its been asked before but not sure if my case would be slightly different.

    I am buying a property and the searches has came back with foul drainage running under the extension and the conservatory next to it. My solicitor has raised enquiry with the vendor's solicitor that vendor needs to show Build Over Agreement.

    If vendor could provide it then it should be fine but considering that extension was build over 12/13 years ago; if vendor not been able to provide one then what are the options? One option I came across which was that the vendor putting Indemnity policy which only runs for limited time (think its 10 years). Not very keen on this as it has only limited time and seems like a tick box exercise to me.

    Is there a way to get the Build Over Agreement in place for this kind of existing extension?

    If the build over agreement is granted and misplaced by the owner, can one request this from the water company? Can I request it after I bought it?

    I read somewhere that you can call CCTV contractor and they repot back to the water company after which water company issues build over agreement but not sure how that works. (Not sure I understood it completely)

    Edit: Required planning permission was applied and granted by local council when extension was build. Not sure if local council would look for build over agreement before granting this permission and if its an indication that build over agreement should be 'somewhere'.



    Thanks
    Last edited by ric1982; 12-07-2018 at 9:45 AM.
Page 1
    • Hoploz
    • By Hoploz 7th Jul 18, 3:00 PM
    • 3,842 Posts
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    Hoploz
    • #2
    • 7th Jul 18, 3:00 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Jul 18, 3:00 PM
    When did build-over agreements come about? I thought more recently than this was built
    • Hoploz
    • By Hoploz 7th Jul 18, 3:06 PM
    • 3,842 Posts
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    Hoploz
    • #3
    • 7th Jul 18, 3:06 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Jul 18, 3:06 PM
    A quick search online and it looks like they started in October 2011 so before that it was covered under building regs, no specific agreement with water co required.
    • RedFraggle
    • By RedFraggle 7th Jul 18, 4:47 PM
    • 760 Posts
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    RedFraggle
    • #4
    • 7th Jul 18, 4:47 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Jul 18, 4:47 PM
    If the extension was built that long ago the foul drain would have been the responsibility of the home owner. It was around 2010 that shared sewerage outflows to the public sewer became the responsibility of the water authority. If there was a manhole that should have been relocated or access preserved.
    Officially in a clique of idiots
    • ric1982
    • By ric1982 8th Jul 18, 5:21 AM
    • 190 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    ric1982
    • #5
    • 8th Jul 18, 5:21 AM
    • #5
    • 8th Jul 18, 5:21 AM
    I am also unsure if the manhole was there before the extension was build. (if you see the Red T junction). I think the whole thing becomes lot more complicated of the manhole was not properly moved if it was there in the past. The seller might not have done all the paper work or the paper work is lost. Is there a way to find out if the manhole was there and moved? The council's website shows planning permission being given and approved but does not have document (pdf etc.). Can I call council for these docs?

    Really frustrating this whole house buying !!!!! agggh...
    • Hoploz
    • By Hoploz 8th Jul 18, 6:24 AM
    • 3,842 Posts
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    Hoploz
    • #6
    • 8th Jul 18, 6:24 AM
    • #6
    • 8th Jul 18, 6:24 AM
    Unless there is some problem with the drains, I think you have to assume everything is fine. This work would not come under planning permission - it would come under Building Regilations. The best you can do is ask whether there is a Completion certificate for the extension work. If so then it's been inspected and signed off. If not then you may wish to make further enquiries on the works done.
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 8th Jul 18, 7:23 AM
    • 26,650 Posts
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    Davesnave
    • #7
    • 8th Jul 18, 7:23 AM
    • #7
    • 8th Jul 18, 7:23 AM
    We had to obtain a build-over agreement with our council in 1987, when we built an extension over what was then their public sewer.

    Legally, it gave us permission and also set out guidance for our structural engineer, who then provided the exact detail to be followed through construction and inspection.

    As I recall, the agreement did not provide protection from works that might follow. For example, it gave the council the right to enter and break up the floors to reach the sewer, which would have been interesting, since we'd been told to heavily reinforce the floors and the sewer lay 2m deep!

    From our perspective, it was just legal paperwork, as we did the building according to the structural engineer's guidance and that was covered by inspections. It was not likely in our opinion that anyone would subsequently wish to access the sewer from within the building.


    The sewer you show is definitely now a public sewer. My only concern is that it shows a junction within the building and I would expect that to be acessible as a matter of course. Is there an airtight inspection cover at that point? It's not ideal to have one of those indoors but nor was it against regs in the past.


    In your position, I would be guided by my solicitor on the legal aspect and pay for a CCTV drainage inspection to ensure there is no physical problem with the sewer.
    A garden is never so good as it will be next year....
    • ric1982
    • By ric1982 8th Jul 18, 11:25 AM
    • 190 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    ric1982
    • #8
    • 8th Jul 18, 11:25 AM
    • #8
    • 8th Jul 18, 11:25 AM
    Thanks Davenave and everyone who replied,

    I don't know if they have forked out a manhole (if there was one) at the T junction. This is my fear exactly.

    Some of the frequent responses I got from vendor is that, "oh it was done 15 years ago hence I am missing some of the paper work". And I appreciate that but it doesn't help me.

    One of thing thats bothering me is that, the vendor's solicitor will advise vendor to put Indemnity cover to which my solicitor would agree but its like a bandage plaster, everyone is covered except me! I would not be comfortable to just to have indemnity cover for this particular problem.
    Even with Indemnity cover, In future if we decided to have further extension, then the indemnity cover would be invalid due to inspection carry out by water company!

    As per the CCTV If there are any issues in future then we have to open up ground with in the building or worse take the whole extension down. There is also danger of subsistence due to drainage leak which is even bigger risk!

    This is turning out to be really sunny and stressful Sunday!
    Last edited by ric1982; 08-07-2018 at 11:36 AM.
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 8th Jul 18, 11:59 AM
    • 26,650 Posts
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    Davesnave
    • #9
    • 8th Jul 18, 11:59 AM
    • #9
    • 8th Jul 18, 11:59 AM
    I don't know if they have forked out a manhole (if there was one) at the T junction. This is my fear exactly.


    I would want to see it. There has been a requirement for a long time to have access at points where sewers join at right angles like that.



    As per the CCTV If there are any issues in future then we have to open up ground with in the building or worse take the whole extension down. There is also danger of subsistence due to drainage leak which is even bigger risk!
    Originally posted by ric1982
    CCTV might be done from the next nearest inspection chamber, which could be on another person's land.


    There are also less invasive ways of repairing pipes these days, besides digging them up. Often they may be re-sleeved from an external location.
    A garden is never so good as it will be next year....
    • ric1982
    • By ric1982 8th Jul 18, 12:04 PM
    • 190 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    ric1982
    There is a manhole on the property's driveway which could an access point but its a litter further away from T junction.
    • ric1982
    • By ric1982 10th Jul 18, 8:18 AM
    • 190 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    ric1982
    Given that there is no manhole access now for the T junction and it was covered while building extension
    - Would you buy this property? Or is this a deal breaker?
    If its not a deal breaker then which documents would you like check from the vendors (Personally I would not be happy with just Indemnity cover.)?
    - Building Over agreement (already been asked to produce)
    - Building Control Sign-off
    - Building Control Permission or Approval.
    - Any other relevant docs.

    Update: I have just seen google earth map. Everyone on the street who has build an extension have left space on the side for the manhole except this house!

    Thanks
    Last edited by ric1982; 10-07-2018 at 8:27 AM.
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 10th Jul 18, 10:38 AM
    • 26,650 Posts
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    Davesnave

    Update: I have just seen google earth map. Everyone on the street who has build an extension have left space on the side for the manhole except this house!
    Originally posted by ric1982
    But not everyone else has another sewer from some distance away meeting at a right angle to their own/immediate neighbours, so the lack of access is doubly concerning.
    A garden is never so good as it will be next year....
    • ric1982
    • By ric1982 11th Jul 18, 11:50 AM
    • 190 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    ric1982
    Given that there is no manhole access now for the T junction and it was covered while building extension
    - Would you buy this property? Or is this a deal breaker?
    If its not a deal breaker then which documents would you like check from the vendors (Personally I would not be happy with just Indemnity cover.)?
    - Building Over agreement (already been asked to produce)
    - Building Control Sign-off
    - Building Control Permission or Approval.
    - Any other relevant docs.
    Originally posted by ric1982
    Anyone?

    My fear about buying this property is that it has the drainage pipe which flows all other houses sewage into the main public drainage, we have to end up forking money every-time its blocked because someone in the neighbour decide to flush sanitary towel!

    Is this fear well founded?
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 11th Jul 18, 3:21 PM
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    Davesnave
    It's a shared sewer, so blockages would be the responsibility of the water company.

    There's a lot we don't know here though, like how old the sewer is and at what depth it runs. I'd be less concerned about blockages and more interested in it's physical state, which might, of course, give rise to blockages..



    I'd not care about planning permission much because it is too late for any enforcement to be applied. Building regs are a different matter,however, and in your shoes I'd want to see the sign-off. I have a feeling that if the inspection chamber was removed, you won't be seeing any building regs paperwork.


    You could always speak to the neighbours to find out if there have been problems with these drains; someone will talk if there have!
    Last edited by Davesnave; 11-07-2018 at 3:23 PM.
    A garden is never so good as it will be next year....
    • ric1982
    • By ric1982 11th Jul 18, 4:53 PM
    • 190 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    ric1982
    Thanks, I have contacted council's Building Control department and they said following:

    Approval – Available
    Completion Certificate – Available

    What do you mean by "sign-off" document?
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 11th Jul 18, 6:40 PM
    • 26,650 Posts
    • 96,067 Thanks
    Davesnave
    Thanks, I have contacted council's Building Control department and they said following:

    Approval – Available
    Completion Certificate – Available

    What do you mean by "sign-off" document?
    Originally posted by ric1982
    Sign-off = Completion Certificate.


    This means the paperwork's in order and the work was inspected during the build, probably several times.
    A garden is never so good as it will be next year....
    • ric1982
    • By ric1982 12th Jul 18, 8:56 AM
    • 190 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    ric1982
    This sounds reassuring.
    • davemorton
    • By davemorton 12th Jul 18, 1:33 PM
    • 26,912 Posts
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    davemorton
    Hmm, I am on the other side of the fence with this one. I am selling and the buyers solicitor is asking for my build over agreement. I had not heard about one of these until I was asked, as I guess these were not about when I bought my home (2004).
    What is more worrying is I cant find any details of the extension on the councils website although I know it was built more than 30 years ago, but presume it must be legal as my solicitor never mentioned it when I was buying and I have every confidence in their ability's (they have since retired, so cant use that person this time round).
    The manhole is still accessable in the extension (concrete floor raised with wood and an access panel in place, is just a garage that has been made larger and turned into a utility room.)
    So, im hoping my buyers will be happy with an indemnity policy as I cant see what else I can do. I have had no issues with the drains in the time I have lived here.
    “Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?”
    Juvenal, The Sixteen Satires
    • ric1982
    • By ric1982 17th Jul 18, 11:22 AM
    • 190 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    ric1982
    I have rangup the water company annyomously and asked for a generic advise and its as follows:

    - If the extension was build before 2011 and at the time it was part of the shared private sewage then provided that the water company has not already adopted this sweage at the time (some of the sewages were adopted by water company pre 2011), it would not require build over agreement.

    Now how do I find out that the property's shared private sewage was adopted or not by the water company at the time of extension without giving up property details to the water company!!?

    Fustrating!
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 17th Jul 18, 12:00 PM
    • 26,034 Posts
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    Doozergirl
    How old is the actual house? Built pre-1936 any shared drains would have been adopted by the water co. and a build over agreement required.

    Post 1936, you and your neighbours' own responsibility, no build over agreement requirement.

    Any drain that isn't shared at all is and has always been yours to build over.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
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