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  • FIRST POST
    • msx.com
    • By msx.com 5th Jul 18, 8:40 PM
    • 14Posts
    • 5Thanks
    msx.com
    BHX Apcoa Parking Charge Notice
    • #1
    • 5th Jul 18, 8:40 PM
    BHX Apcoa Parking Charge Notice 5th Jul 18 at 8:40 PM
    Hello,

    Would really appreciate any help with this one please.
    Someone I know has received a parking charge notice from apcoa at birmingham airport. It is the usual pay now £50, after 14 days pay £100 after 28 days if not paid expect debt collectors or legal proceedings. I'm sure this all sounds familiar but they are very unsure what to do.

    The parking charge notice states:
    'notice is hereby served to the registered keeper of vehicle....'
    'for the alleged contravention of failing to park in a designated parking area'
    'the alleged contravention is a breach of the terms and conditions of use of the car park infrastructure where signs are clearly displayed throughout the area showing these terms and conditions'

    The amount of days between the incident and issue of notice is 27 days (not sure if this is relevant). There are 4 pictures, 1 number plate, 2 are the same and 2 of them showing a person dealing with something at the rear passenger door. The time span of these pictures is 8 seconds.

    The driver (who is not named nor will be named) had stopped near a junction off one of the very busy main roads in and out of the airport and it is part of their 'red route' to allow a passenger to deal with something very urgent in the back of the car (child related), the engine was not turned off and once dealt with they left very promptly (within 10 seconds).

    What I would like to know, in your experiences, is if they appealed the parking charge notice with this reason (more detailed information would be given) would apcoa just reject it without blinking an eye?
    Would they need to go down the appeal route with this template from the NEWBIES thread:

    Re PCN number:

    I appeal and dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn, nor was there an agreed contract. Your signage terms fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence of the parking charge, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis, which is fully distinguished.

    Should you fail to cancel this PCN, I require with your rejection letter, all images taken of this vehicle & the signs at the location that day. Do not withhold any images or data later relied on for POPLA/court.

    Firms of your ilk were unanimously condemned in 2018 as operating an 'outrageous scam' (Hansard 2.2.18). The BPA & IPC were heavily criticised too; hardly surprising for an industry where so-called AOS members admit to letting victims 'futilely go through the motions' of appeal and say on camera 'we make it up sometimes' (BBC Watchdog).

    I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner, as well as complaining in writing to my MP and ensuring that they are appraised of the debate where Parliament agreed unanimously: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists...should not have to put up with this''.

    Formal note:

    Service of any rejection letter/POPLA code and/or legal documents by email is expressly disallowed. All responses to me from this point on, must be made by post. Regardless of any MCOL online/email system, service of any court claim must only be made by first class post to the latest address provided by me.

    Yours faithfully,


    THE NAME AND POSTAL ADDRESS OF THE KEEPER (OR THE HIRER/LESSEE) GOES HERE. THE DRIVER IS NOT IDENTIFIED.

    Can apcoa legally charge this amount of money for the alleged contravention? Can they enforce the 'red route' as it is airport land and not council owned? Can apcoa have legally obtained the keepers details?

    Please excuse me if I have asked or said anything in the wrong way as I'm very new to this.

    Thank you for any information and replies you can give.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Jul 18, 8:50 PM
    • 63,875 Posts
    • 76,531 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 5th Jul 18, 8:50 PM
    • #2
    • 5th Jul 18, 8:50 PM
    The driver (who is not named nor will be named) had stopped near a junction off one of the very busy main roads in and out of the airport and it is part of their 'red route' to allow a passenger to deal with something very urgent in the back of the car (child related), the engine was not turned off and once dealt with they left very promptly (within 10 seconds).

    What I would like to know, in your experiences, is if they appealed the parking charge notice with this reason (more detailed information would be given) would apcoa just reject it without blinking an eye?
    Yes and then the person might not win at POPLA because what you have described is hit and miss. Not a winning appeal, bound to lose first stage at least, and in danger of blabbing about who was driving. DON'T DO THIS.

    Would they need to go down the appeal route with this template from the NEWBIES thread.
    Yes and APCOA will either:

    - fold first time, or

    - fold when they see the next stage POPLA template (very long).

    We have 100% record v APCOA, so no trying to reinvent the wheel.

    What you are missing is the subliminal message in the template appeal that tells APCOA you have found MSE, and they will lose if they continue.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • msx.com
    • By msx.com 5th Jul 18, 9:03 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    msx.com
    • #3
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:03 PM
    • #3
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:03 PM
    Wow, thank you for the quick reply!

    When you talk about MSE what does that mean?

    The scary thing about fighting this, is the scare monger tactics employed by these companies, especially the amounts of money they band around.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 5th Jul 18, 9:05 PM
    • 10,658 Posts
    • 11,043 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #4
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:05 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:05 PM
    When you talk about MSE what does that mean?
    Originally posted by msx.com
    What is the name of the website you are now reading?
    .
    • msx.com
    • By msx.com 5th Jul 18, 9:09 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    msx.com
    • #5
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:09 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:09 PM
    Lol!!

    My apologies, my brain isn't working properly after a long hot day at work.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Jul 18, 9:19 PM
    • 63,875 Posts
    • 76,531 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:19 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:19 PM
    You'll soon see that APCOA are far from scary! They'll fold with their tail between their legs...
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • msx.com
    • By msx.com 6th Jul 18, 8:05 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    msx.com
    • #7
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:05 PM
    • #7
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:05 PM
    Having spoken to the keeper their concern is that it is in their name and that it could develop further by appeals being unsuccessful and then get taken to court. They don't want to pay it because the amount is obscene.

    Is there any other advice that can be given?

    Really appreciate all that has been said so far, thank you.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 6th Jul 18, 8:19 PM
    • 3,286 Posts
    • 5,056 Thanks
    fisherjim
    • #8
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:19 PM
    • #8
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:19 PM
    Having spoken to the keeper their concern is that it is in their name and that it could develop further by appeals being unsuccessful and then get taken to court. They don't want to pay it because the amount is obscene.

    Is there any other advice that can be given?

    Really appreciate all that has been said so far, thank you.
    Originally posted by msx.com

    Do you really think that the regulars on here put in hundreds of hours of their own time into advising/writing guides etc for there to be a magic other way??


    It's only APCOA and it's an airport use the tried and tested advice given, it won't go to court!
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 6th Jul 18, 8:43 PM
    • 37,753 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #9
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:43 PM
    • #9
    • 6th Jul 18, 8:43 PM
    So the NTK is non-POFA compliant and the alleged event happened on non-relevant land where byelaws apply. Two holes in one at PoPLA, so tell your friend to get stuck in and see CRAPCOA off.

    Initial appeal as per the template from the NEWBIES, second stage appeal using all the relevant template points from post 3 of the NEWBIES.

    Copy and paste and send. Not much effort required.

    They should also complain to their MP about this unregulated scam.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 06-07-2018 at 8:45 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Jul 18, 9:21 PM
    • 20,238 Posts
    • 31,929 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    APCOA and Court in the same sentence? You're 'avin' a larf!

    http://www.parkingappeals.info/companydata/APCOA_Parking_UK.html

    Over 200,000 tickets issued in the past 2 years and just one court case (which was 2 years ago and probably nothing to do with parking at all!). Is your friend feeling (un)lucky, punk?
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • msx.com
    • By msx.com 6th Jul 18, 10:17 PM
    • 14 Posts
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    msx.com
    Just had a read of POFA 2012, am I right in saying that because there were 17 working days from when the alleged incident happened until the date of issue of the NTK that they haven't got a leg to stand on?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 6th Jul 18, 10:24 PM
    • 10,658 Posts
    • 11,043 Thanks
    KeithP
    Why are you reading POFA?

    You have already been told that this event did not take place on 'relevant land', so I am left wondering why you are asking?

    What does 'haven't got a leg to stand on' mean in this instance?

    If the NtK arrives late with the keeper, all that means is that they cannot use POFA2012 to transfer liability to the keeper.

    Does POFA even mention 'working days'?
    Last edited by KeithP; 06-07-2018 at 10:29 PM.
    .
    • msx.com
    • By msx.com 6th Jul 18, 10:35 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    msx.com
    Sorry, I misunderstood the previous comment.

    Thank you for pointing out where I have gone wrong.

    As you can tell I haven't done this before so if I make a mistake on here then I will at least get the right info to the keeper.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Jul 18, 12:46 AM
    • 63,875 Posts
    • 76,531 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    WE WIN 100% OF CASES V APCOA.

    repeat after me!

    WE WIN 100% OF CASES V APCOA.

    What the heck are you worried about, APCOA are one of the easiest to beat!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • msx.com
    • By msx.com 3rd Aug 18, 7:27 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    msx.com
    Hey,


    Bit of an update......

    The owner sent an appeal using the regular template from the newbies section. Apcoa sent a reply saying they would reply in due course with their decision.

    About a week later the owner received an email with an attachment with their decision, this attachment is totally unreadable and various programs have been tried but none will make it readable.
    The owner tried to reply to that email but it bounced back saying 'undelivered' so Apcoa was contacted via their website using the 'contact us' and a strongly worded letter to their 'customer service' team was sent detailing what has happened with their decision requesting they contact the owner. So far there has been no reply and it's been a week since the owner tried to contact them.
    Was this the right thing to do? If not, how would you advise to proceed on this?


    Thank you.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Aug 18, 7:32 PM
    • 19,901 Posts
    • 25,193 Thanks
    Redx
    if you get nowhere with APCOA then you follow the advice in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread and complain to the BPA aos compliance team with a brief timeline and copies of all correspondence etc

    chances are APCOA will cancel it as soon as the BPA contact them about it

    complain about no legible rejection with a POPLA code


    also tell that keeper they are bulletproof seeing as POFA2012 does not apply at BHX and there is no keeper liability whatsoever , especially because bylaws apply
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • msx.com
    • By msx.com 3rd Aug 18, 8:27 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    msx.com
    if you get nowhere with APCOA then you follow the advice in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread and complain to the BPA aos compliance team with a brief timeline and copies of all correspondence etc

    chances are APCOA will cancel it as soon as the BPA contact them about it

    complain about no legible rejection with a POPLA code


    also tell that keeper they are bulletproof seeing as POFA2012 does not apply at BHX and there is no keeper liability whatsoever , especially because bylaws apply
    Originally posted by Redx

    Fantastic, thank you very much!!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 3rd Aug 18, 9:32 PM
    • 20,238 Posts
    • 31,929 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    When you complain to the BPA, copy it in to the DVLA too. And why not get your MP lined up too, given that Parliament is now getting involved in bringing this out of control skimdustry to heel.

    Here are a couple of DVLA email addresses to try. The 'ccrt' one used to work (and is the most direct contact), but there are reports that it's been a bit sticky of late - try it, if no good, use the alternative.

    ccrt@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

    FOI@dvla.gsi.gov.uk
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • msx.com
    • By msx.com 5th Sep 18, 8:02 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    msx.com
    Hi,


    The keeper received a reminder notice explaining that no payment or appeal had been made so the outstanding payment is £100, this is totally untrue as by their admission on their website is that you cannot appeal the parking charge notice twice.
    The keeper has emailed the BPA to inform them that APCOA have not supplied a POPLA code, all dates of correspondence and evidence have been sent to the BPA. They replied to say that they would investigate this and get back to the keeper in due course stating that it can take around 14 days.
    The keeper also emailed the DVLA complaingin about the release of information from the DVLA vehicle register, this was the reply they received -



    "Dear XXXXX
    Thank you for your email of XXXX 2018 about the release of information from the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency’s (DVLA) vehicle register.
    The DVLA takes the protection and security of its data very seriously and has procedures in place to ensure data is disclosed only where it is lawful and fair to do so and where the provisions of the Data Protection Law are met. The Agency must strike a balance between ensuring the privacy of motorists is respected while enabling those who may have suffered loss or damage to seek redress.
    Regulation 27 (1)(e) of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002 permits the disclosure of vehicle keeper information to those who can demonstrate a reasonable cause for needing it. The release of information under this legislation is not based on the consent of the data subject. Regulation 27 provides a legal gateway for the release of information. Disclosure in these circumstances does not breach the Data Protection Law and the Information Commissioner’s Office is fully aware that data held on the DVLA’s records is released in this way.
    Drivers choosing to park a vehicle on private land do so subject to the terms and conditions set out on signage in the car park. The need to contact individuals who may not have complied with these conditions is, in most circumstances, considered to be a reasonable cause. Data is provided by the DVLA to enable landowners or their agents to pursue their legal rights and to address disputes. I hope you can appreciate that if this were not the case, motorists would be able to park with disregard for the conditions applying with little prospect of being held accountable.
    I have investigated this matter fully with APCOA Parking (UK) Ltd and they have provided satisfactory evidence to demonstrate reasonable cause to obtain keeper data from the DVLA. Keeper details were required for the alleged contravention of failing to park in a designated parking area.
    The company in question APCOA Parking (UK) Ltd are members of the British Parking Association (BPA) which is an ATA for the parking industry. The BPA’s code of practice is published on its website at .......... under the heading “Approved Operators Scheme”. If a member of this AOS does not comply with the code of practice, it may be suspended or expelled, during which time no data will be provided to it by the DVLA. If you feel that any of the practices used by the company did not comply with the BPA’s code of practice, you may wish to contact the BPA at Stuart House, 41- 43 Perrymount Road, Haywards Heath, RH16 3BN.

    I trust I have explained matters but, if you remain unhappy with the service you have received, you can write to our Complaints Team and I have provided a link to our complaints procedure for your reference:............
    Yours sincerely
    Sent via email
    Zoe Newson Data Compliance Officer"


    After reading several other posts on here and elsewhere this seems to be the sort of reply expected from them. Is it worth the keeper responding to this email or raise the matter further? Can the question be asked "what the satisfactory evidence is?" As stated on the standard appeal to APCOA the keeper has stated they are not the driver but the DVLA are talking about this, again another point to raise with them?


    Are there any other questions or points that could be raised with the DVLA or does the keeper now just wait on the BPA response?


    Many thanks in advance to any time taken out by yourselves to help the keeper with this one.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 5th Sep 18, 8:14 PM
    • 10,658 Posts
    • 11,043 Thanks
    KeithP
    msx.com, have you read Regulation 27 (1)(e) of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002?

    You will find that it is as the DVLA say - the PPC has to have 'reasonable cause' to ask the DVLA for the keeper's details.

    If you were to ask DVLA for proof of that 'reasonable cause', all you would get back is something like:
    APCOA requested keeper details in order to ask the keeper for the name and address of the driver at the time of the alleged parking incident.
    .
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