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  • FIRST POST
    • pablohoney
    • By pablohoney 5th Jul 18, 12:04 PM
    • 14Posts
    • 2Thanks
    pablohoney
    lease Car appeal
    • #1
    • 5th Jul 18, 12:04 PM
    lease Car appeal 5th Jul 18 at 12:04 PM
    Hi

    I have read all the info in the newbies thread but am unclear what to do sorry.

    I lease a car under a personal contract hire agreement. On 30/6 I received a PCN for an alleged parking issue at beginning of May i.e. 2 months after parking incident. I wasn't the driver of the car on this date.

    I have spoken to lease company and they say they received a PCN 30/5 and replied to the PPC on 21/6 passing them my details.

    Lease company are the registered keeper.


    Do I appeal as the keeper or as the hirer of the vehicle?


    It seems to me that since it took the PPC almost 30 days to contact lease company in first instance - they breached the 14 days under POFA 2012 so I should appeal on that basis. However in the paperwork they have sent me they make no mention of POFA.

    So do I simply state that no liability towards keeper has been established? yet I am not sure whether I am the keeper for POFA purposes!

    Do I just say I am not the registered keeper or the driver so they have no basis of charging me?

    Any other suggestions gratefully received!

    Many thanks
Page 1
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 5th Jul 18, 12:19 PM
    • 10,675 Posts
    • 11,059 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #2
    • 5th Jul 18, 12:19 PM
    • #2
    • 5th Jul 18, 12:19 PM
    My suggestion would be to read post #1 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.

    In there, towards the bottom, you will find guidance specifically tailored for lease/hire cars.
    .
    • pablohoney
    • By pablohoney 5th Jul 18, 12:48 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    pablohoney
    • #3
    • 5th Jul 18, 12:48 PM
    • #3
    • 5th Jul 18, 12:48 PM
    Thank you but I did not find that this answered my questions sorry
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 5th Jul 18, 1:03 PM
    • 10,675 Posts
    • 11,059 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #4
    • 5th Jul 18, 1:03 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Jul 18, 1:03 PM
    Do I appeal as the keeper or as the hirer of the vehicle?
    Originally posted by pablohoney
    You appeal as lessee of the vehicle - pointing out that you are the keeper as defined in POFA2012.

    Appeal texts have already been written for you.
    .
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 5th Jul 18, 1:11 PM
    • 10,598 Posts
    • 10,437 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #5
    • 5th Jul 18, 1:11 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Jul 18, 1:11 PM
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 5th Jul 18, 2:06 PM
    • 4,715 Posts
    • 6,084 Thanks
    waamo
    • #6
    • 5th Jul 18, 2:06 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Jul 18, 2:06 PM
    Just to help which bit of this are you struggling with?

    COMPANY, LEASE OR HIRE CARS ANYWHERE IN THE UK

    In the case of a company car or hire car, if you get a windscreen ticket you MUST appeal before day 28 (well before day 21 when it's an IPC firm which only 'offers' 21 days to appeal - check the PCN). This is in order to hook the PPC in your direction, before they get a chance to get the keeper's details from the DVLA.

    You should also warn the owner/keeper (Fleet Manager) not to pay if they do get a letter about it because they have no business to get involved in a fake PCN you have already appealed as driver, and you won't reimburse them if they are daft enough to pay it.

    If the hire/lease co gets a postal PCN and names you as the driver/hirer, that is a good thing as it removes them from the loop entirely and then you can follow the above advice as appropriate to your case - but check and see if they have charged an admin fee. Challenge that admin fee with the Fleet Manager, Hire firm or your HR Manager, if your car use t&cs do not support this deduction for a mere invoice (as opposed to a fine/penalty).

    Here are some examples of a successful first appeal. These examples relate to a situation where the PPC has (pretty much ALWAYS!) failed to send the required documents to the hirer (you) with the postal Notice, by day 21 after the date they were informed of the hirer's details:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5703794

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69859059#post69859059

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69767583#post69767583


    Thanks to Edna Basher for the template appeal for when it's a Hire/company/lease car and a postal Notice has been sent out, after the hirer/lessee/company car user has been named. Remember, that does not mean they have named the 'driver'! So stay schtum about who was driving!
    This space for hire.
    • pablohoney
    • By pablohoney 5th Jul 18, 2:17 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    pablohoney
    • #7
    • 5th Jul 18, 2:17 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Jul 18, 2:17 PM
    Many thanks to everybody for their help. Sorry to be a bit slow with this. Here is a appeal letter I think I need to submit to the PPC.

    Can you critique it please before I submit.

    I refer to the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice issued to me.

    I confirm that as the hirer of this vehicle, I am its keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and I write to formally challenge the validity of this PCN.

    You will no doubt be familiar with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA to be followed in order for a parking operator to be able to invoke keeper liability for a Parking Charge. There are a number of reasons why your Notice to Hirer did not comply with POFA; in order that you may understand why, I suggest that you carefully study the details of Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 in particular.

    Given that Smart Parking Ltd has forfeited its right to keeper liability, please confirm that you shall now cancel this charge. Alternatively, should you choose to reject my challenge, please provide me with details of the Independent Appeals Service (POPLA), their contact details and a unique POPLA appeal reference so that I may escalate the matter to POPLA.

    Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your response within the relevant timescales specified under the British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice.


    Yours faithfully,




    I assume then if they reject this appeal I would set out two key reasons to POPLA they have failed to meet POFA2012 - namely:


    1. That they missed the 14 day deadline to issue paperwork to lease company ;and

    2. They failed to send me hire docs within 21 days of receiving them from leasing company (assuming they were provided with them since I do not actually know if they were does this matter?


    Have I got this right now?


    Thanks again
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 5th Jul 18, 2:53 PM
    • 692 Posts
    • 1,812 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    • #8
    • 5th Jul 18, 2:53 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Jul 18, 2:53 PM
    Things are getting a little more complicated these days - some PPCs (e.g. UKPC) are now being awkward by continuing to pursue payment from the hire company if the hire company does not follow the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA to the letter when trying to transfer liability to the hirer.

    Your response will depend upon the PPC you're dealing with. Which PPC issued the PCN?. Although your draft refers to Smart Parking, was this just copied and pasted in from the example on the MSE thread?
    • pablohoney
    • By pablohoney 5th Jul 18, 3:16 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    pablohoney
    • #9
    • 5th Jul 18, 3:16 PM
    • #9
    • 5th Jul 18, 3:16 PM
    Hi

    Yes it is Smart Parking.

    I am planning on writing to the lease company to say I am contesting the PCN on the basis that it has not complied with POFA requirements and that if they are pursued and choose to pay it then I wont reimburse them for an unlawful ticket.


    What do you think?
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 5th Jul 18, 3:25 PM
    • 692 Posts
    • 1,812 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    That's okay, things are still very straightforward with Smart - they don't even attempt to rely on POFA and so they have no reason to go back to pestering the hire company.

    The letter you've drafted will work fine. You can submit this via Smart's website and I expect them to cancel the charge at the first stage rather than putting you through the hassle of escalating to POPLA.
    • pablohoney
    • By pablohoney 5th Jul 18, 3:31 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    pablohoney
    Many Thanks everyone - appreciate all your help here.
    • pablohoney
    • By pablohoney 5th Jul 18, 3:44 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    pablohoney
    Sorry but shall I wait until 21 days have passed from date leasing company gave PPC my details so that I do not give them the opportunity to send hirer docs through within 21 days deadline?
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 5th Jul 18, 4:01 PM
    • 692 Posts
    • 1,812 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    With Smart, given that their original Notice to Keeper to the hire company did not comply with POFA, there's no reason to wait for the 21 days to pass - other than to let Smart waste their money on sending a Reminder Notice
    • pablohoney
    • By pablohoney 9th Aug 18, 5:23 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    pablohoney
    Hi everyone,

    Received a letter today from SP to say they were cancelling the PCN.

    Thanks again for all your help.
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