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    • teabag29
    • By teabag29 5th Jul 18, 12:07 AM
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    teabag29
    Advice please universal credit query
    • #1
    • 5th Jul 18, 12:07 AM
    Advice please universal credit query 5th Jul 18 at 12:07 AM
    My partner and I will be moving in together in September. Currently I am on income support with 3 children and on pip. My area is not a uc area yet but will be on July 18th.
    My partner is currently claiming uc (in the wrag group) and pip, he!!!8217;s been on uc for 6 months next week.

    Once we move in together and I add him to my income support claim and make a new tax credits claim will I change over to uc as it will be rolled out in my area by then and partner has been on it OR will I stay on tax credits and income support because I have 3 children and never been on uc myself and so it wouldn!!!8217;t apply to me?

    If I move to uc it looks like I!!!8217;ll be losing £200 a week, this is huge.
Page 2
    • huckster
    • By huckster 5th Jul 18, 10:56 PM
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    huckster
    I!!!8217;ve spoken to Dwp and expert UC advisor who have said if nothing changes between now and then (as tweets are still being made by Dwp) then I will have to claim UC as a couple IF I claim on or after July 18th when my area is is full service. I have done a calculation on turn to us of what my new award would be on UC and then compared that to what it would be on tax credits and income support and it!!!8217;s showing That we!!!8217;ll be £104 worse off on universal credits so my only option really is to change our plans and have my partner move in before July 18th so that we won!!!8217;t be £100 worse off every week..... just means my long awaited and much needed holiday won!!!8217;t be very good now as I!!!8217;ll have next to nothing to spend on it, but rather that then spend every week after it struggling.
    Originally posted by teabag29
    So are you currently live service UC and it changes to full servuce on July 2018 ? That might explain it, as live service is different to full service.

    Who is your expert UC advisor at 10:50pm ?
    The comments I post are personal opinion. Always refer to official information sources before relying on internet forums. If you have a problem with any organisation, enter into their official complaints process at the earliest opportunity, as sometimes complaints have to be started within a certain time frame.
    • teabag29
    • By teabag29 6th Jul 18, 2:23 AM
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    teabag29
    Yes that!!!8217;s correct and I didn!!!8217;t speak to them at 22.50 that!!!8217;s just when I put that post I spoke to them earlier today around 16.00, I rang tax credits after trying everyone else and the man I spoke to seemed more knowledgable than anyone else I!!!8217;d spoken to and he said he understood my dilemma and they have colleagues who are universal credit experts, he put me on hold and spoke to him and also his team leader and they said once my area goes into full service on July 18th I will most likely have to change to universal credit because my partners on it.... so therefore if I want to stay on tax credits and not lose £100 a week I need to change my claim and move my partner in b fore 18th July
    • huckster
    • By huckster 6th Jul 18, 6:30 AM
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    huckster
    Yes you want to make any change if you can, so you can stay on tax credits.

    Your partner seems to be on Universal Credit live service and of course if he wants to continue receiving this benefit, he would need to advise of his change in circumstances. When he advises that he is moving in with you and your 3 children, I am not sure how UC live service will deal with this. Perhaps your partner should ask UC the question and mention the current benefits you receive.

    UC Live Service number is 0800 328 9344.

    I would be interested to know what UC Live Service says on this subject.
    Last edited by huckster; 06-07-2018 at 6:38 AM.
    The comments I post are personal opinion. Always refer to official information sources before relying on internet forums. If you have a problem with any organisation, enter into their official complaints process at the earliest opportunity, as sometimes complaints have to be started within a certain time frame.
    • Icequeen99
    • By Icequeen99 6th Jul 18, 6:46 AM
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    Icequeen99
    Yes that!!!8217;s correct and I didn!!!8217;t speak to them at 22.50 that!!!8217;s just when I put that post I spoke to them earlier today around 16.00, I rang tax credits after trying everyone else and the man I spoke to seemed more knowledgable than anyone else I!!!8217;d spoken to and he said he understood my dilemma and they have colleagues who are universal credit experts, he put me on hold and spoke to him and also his team leader and they said once my area goes into full service on July 18th I will most likely have to change to universal credit because my partners on it.... so therefore if I want to stay on tax credits and not lose £100 a week I need to change my claim and move my partner in b fore 18th July
    Originally posted by teabag29
    The 3 child limit applies to the live service as well. I hadn't picked up from your earlier reply that you were considering this as an option.

    Before you do this ahead of full service - I would strongly recommend that you speak to an independent welfare rights adviser.

    IQ
    Last edited by Icequeen99; 06-07-2018 at 1:15 PM.
    • Icequeen99
    • By Icequeen99 6th Jul 18, 6:47 AM
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    Icequeen99
    Workarounds would be needed, as the OP's partner would need to report a change to UC people living with you, new relationship etc, noting just 2 children. At the moment, UC full service will stop new claimant info including 3 children. Noting 2 children would allow a linking code to be provider for partner (OP) making a new UC claim.

    When the OP makes their new UC claim with the linking code to join their partners UC claim, they will have to enter the same 2 children. If they attempt to enter 3 children, they won't be able to proceed. Once the joint claim is up and running, child number 3 can be added, but the question is then whether they receive any extra amount for the 3rd child. They might have to ask that this is referred to a decision maker to see if an exception applies.
    Originally posted by huckster
    NO exception is needed - there is transitional protection in the regulations for this situation where the child was on a tax credits claim in the last 6 months as far as I can tell in the regs.

    IQ
    • huckster
    • By huckster 6th Jul 18, 7:21 AM
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    huckster
    As far as I know the OP is not a current UC claimant and if they have to transfer to UC due to a change in circumstances, before DWP start the managed migration process, there is no transitional protection.

    If they want to include 3 children under a UC claim, because their partner is an existing UC claimant, then they will need to ask the question as to whether they can receive payment for 3 children. This is why I posted the links yesterday. The linked document about 2 claimants forming a family is based on 2 single UC claimants forming one family. The question is then whether 1 UC claimant and 1 legacy benefit claimant can receive the same deal. I have not seen this agreed previously.
    The comments I post are personal opinion. Always refer to official information sources before relying on internet forums. If you have a problem with any organisation, enter into their official complaints process at the earliest opportunity, as sometimes complaints have to be started within a certain time frame.
    • teabag29
    • By teabag29 6th Jul 18, 8:58 AM
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    teabag29
    The 3 child limit applies to the live service as well. I hadn't picked up from your earlier reply that you were considering this as an option.

    Before you do this ahead of full service - I would strongly recommend that you speak to an independent welfare rights adviser, i don't have time to check the legislation again but from memory i'm fairly sure the rules on this particular part are the same for live service and full. You don't want to make a decision based on incorrect information and I wouldn't just accept what a helpline adviser said - because if it is wrong you'll find it very difficult to reverse it.

    IQ
    Originally posted by Icequeen99
    Where do I get a number for an independent welfare rights advisor? I wasn’t aware the rules applied to live service too
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 6th Jul 18, 9:41 AM
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    pmlindyloo
    Just throwing this into the mix!

    Would this apply if they have to claim Universal Credit?

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/376/regulation/3/made

    OP, whereabouts do you live? Largish near town? You might need to do a bit of googling to find a welfare advisor. Have you got a large CAB with a welfare and benefits advisor?

    Also see Alice's post (post 9) about CAB.
    • Icequeen99
    • By Icequeen99 6th Jul 18, 10:44 AM
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    Icequeen99
    Where do I get a number for an independent welfare rights advisor? I wasn!!!8217;t aware the rules applied to live service too
    Originally posted by teabag29
    Try CAB as a starting point.

    Honestly, this is all so complicated that you should be sure on the advice before you make any decisions.

    The regulations are here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/376/made

    My reading of them are that the rules apply to live service (in terms of the 2 child limit) as well - but again get some advice on the whole of your situation from someone who has time to look through all of the legislation.

    IQ
    Last edited by Icequeen99; 06-07-2018 at 1:14 PM.
    • Icequeen99
    • By Icequeen99 6th Jul 18, 10:47 AM
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    Icequeen99
    As far as I know the OP is not a current UC claimant and if they have to transfer to UC due to a change in circumstances, before DWP start the managed migration process, there is no transitional protection.

    If they want to include 3 children under a UC claim, because their partner is an existing UC claimant, then they will need to ask the question as to whether they can receive payment for 3 children. This is why I posted the links yesterday. The linked document about 2 claimants forming a family is based on 2 single UC claimants forming one family. The question is then whether 1 UC claimant and 1 legacy benefit claimant can receive the same deal. I have not seen this agreed previously.
    Originally posted by huckster
    You are talking about transitional protection for managed migration. I never mentioned that.

    There is already transitional protection that was introduced when the 2 child limit was introduced.

    The legislation is here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/376/made

    So it has all been agreed. Providing the children were all born before 6 April 2017 then she will get 3 child elements in UC under these regs. (I assume they must be as she is getting 3 elements in tax credits). After the interim period ends (now 31 Jan 2019) there is a set of transitional rules that protect people between TC and UC.

    IQ
    • teabag29
    • By teabag29 6th Jul 18, 11:38 AM
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    teabag29
    Ok so,I!!!8217;ve been on phone all morning to CAB, Birmingham benefit advice centre and UC.... none of them seemed to know if after July 18th my partner moved in whether I!!!8217;d be allowed to stay on tax credits or whether I!!!8217;d be protected not to lose a big chunk so I didn!!!8217;t take the risk. We!!!8217;ve spoken and decided for him to move in this weekend as we can!!!8217;t afford to risk losing such a big amount each week. I!!!8217;ve rang tax credits and ended my single claim and made a new joint one with no problems, just need to update income support now.

    Thanks for all the advice guys, really shocked how little the UC advisors know about UC, some of them weren!!!8217;t even aware that there were exceptions to the 3 Child rule, felt like I was educating them
    • huckster
    • By huckster 7th Jul 18, 6:38 AM
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    huckster
    Just make sure your partner advises UC of a change in circumstances or closes the UC claim.

    Failure to report a change can lead to serious consequences.

    As for UC staff, you have to remember that UC is a new benefit. Most of the staff that deal with UC have only been dealing with it for less than a year. The guidance they follow would cover thousands of pages on all of the different subjects. The way DWP writes documents is not always clear. There are plenty of grey areas, between the black and white. Claimants can lead very complicated life's and trying to interprete guidance and exceptions when very busy can be very difficult. UC staff won't know much or anything about legacy benefit rules.
    The comments I post are personal opinion. Always refer to official information sources before relying on internet forums. If you have a problem with any organisation, enter into their official complaints process at the earliest opportunity, as sometimes complaints have to be started within a certain time frame.
    • huckster
    • By huckster 7th Jul 18, 6:49 AM
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    huckster
    You are talking about transitional protection for managed migration. I never mentioned that.

    There is already transitional protection that was introduced when the 2 child limit was introduced.

    The legislation is here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/376/made

    So it has all been agreed. Providing the children were all born before 6 April 2017 then she will get 3 child elements in UC under these regs. (I assume they must be as she is getting 3 elements in tax credits). After the interim period ends (now 31 Jan 2019) there is a set of transitional rules that protect people between TC and UC.

    IQ
    Originally posted by Icequeen99
    If a legacy benefit claimant moves to UC because of a change in circumstances they will currently only receive help for 2 children.

    UC currently blocks people with 3 children or more from making new claims, because of this restriction.

    This is why the OP has amended legacy benefits before UC Full service starts in the postcode area, so they don't lose out.

    Early 2019, UC will be lifting this restriction on children, so people with 3 or more can make new claims. I suspect that for brand new claims the amount of money will still be restricted to up to 2 children rate. Those claimants subject to managed migration by DWP from existing legacy benefits to UC will receive the 2 year protection and receive relevant amount for number of children they have, so they don't lose out.
    The comments I post are personal opinion. Always refer to official information sources before relying on internet forums. If you have a problem with any organisation, enter into their official complaints process at the earliest opportunity, as sometimes complaints have to be started within a certain time frame.
    • huckster
    • By huckster 7th Jul 18, 7:14 AM
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    huckster
    Just throwing this into the mix!

    Would this apply if they have to claim Universal Credit?

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/376/regulation/3/made

    OP, whereabouts do you live? Largish near town? You might need to do a bit of googling to find a welfare advisor. Have you got a large CAB with a welfare and benefits advisor?

    Also see Alice's post (post 9) about CAB.
    Originally posted by pmlindyloo
    Not sure it applies as schedule 12 (6) seems to relate to 2 people who form a couple, who have both claimed UC or would be entitled to UC. At the moment the OP does not meet UC Full service criteria as they have 3 children and are prevented from applying for UC full service, if they answer the question on Gov.uk correctly.

    Whether they can currently join the UC Live Service claim of their new partner, I am not sure and if they could whether they would get 3 children rate ? The OP could not obtain any answer from UC on this question.


    Schedule 12 (6)

    Continuation of existing exception in a subsequent award
    6. An exception applies where—
    (a) the claimant (“C”) is A’s step-parent;
    (b) none of the exceptions under paragraphs 2 to 5 above apply;
    (c) C has previously been entitled to an award of universal credit as a member of a couple jointly with a parent of A, in which an exception under paragraph 2, 3 or 5 above applied in relation to A;
    (d) since that award terminated, each award of universal credit to which C has been entitled has been made—
    (i) as a consequence of a previous award having ended when C ceased to be a member of a couple or became a member of a couple; or
    (ii) in any other circumstances in which the assessment periods for that award begin on the same day of each month as the assessment periods for a previous award under regulation 21 (assessment periods); and
    (e) where, in the award mentioned in sub-paragraph (c), an exception under paragraph 2 above applied in relation to A—
    (i) C is responsible for one or more other children or qualifying young persons born as a result of the same pregnancy as A; and
    (ii) A is not the first in the order of those children or qualifying young persons as determined under regulation 24B (order of children and qualifying young persons).”.
    The comments I post are personal opinion. Always refer to official information sources before relying on internet forums. If you have a problem with any organisation, enter into their official complaints process at the earliest opportunity, as sometimes complaints have to be started within a certain time frame.
    • teabag29
    • By teabag29 7th Jul 18, 8:09 AM
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    teabag29
    Just make sure your partner advises UC of a change in circumstances or closes the UC claim.

    Failure to report a change can lead to serious consequences.

    As for UC staff, you have to remember that UC is a new benefit. Most of the staff that deal with UC have only been dealing with it for less than a year. The guidance they follow would cover thousands of pages on all of the different subjects. The way DWP writes documents is not always clear. There are plenty of grey areas, between the black and white. Claimants can lead very complicated life's and trying to interprete guidance and exceptions when very busy can be very difficult. UC staff won't know much or anything about legacy benefit rules.
    Originally posted by huckster
    Yes he did that first before we rang tax credits
    • Icequeen99
    • By Icequeen99 7th Jul 18, 9:53 AM
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    Icequeen99
    If a legacy benefit claimant moves to UC because of a change in circumstances they will currently only receive help for 2 children.

    UC currently blocks people with 3 children or more from making new claims, because of this restriction.

    This is why the OP has amended legacy benefits before UC Full service starts in the postcode area, so they don't lose out.

    Early 2019, UC will be lifting this restriction on children, so people with 3 or more can make new claims. I suspect that for brand new claims the amount of money will still be restricted to up to 2 children rate. Those claimants subject to managed migration by DWP from existing legacy benefits to UC will receive the 2 year protection and receive relevant amount for number of children they have, so they don't lose out.
    Originally posted by huckster
    I'm sorry but you are incorrect. If a legacy benefit claimant has been claiming for 3 children that suggests the children were all born before 6 April 2017. If they claim UC now - they will get 3 child elements.

    See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/376/regulation/3/made Reg 40 (2)

    This applies during the interim period up to 31 January 2019.

    UC blocks claims because the IT isn't ready. And it doesn't block claims from everyone with 3 children, there are some exceptions as I said earlier. Most people with 3 or more children can't claim UC, but some have to as one of the exceptions apply.

    After the interim period, UC will limit to 2 children in a stricter way than legacy benefits because it will include children born before 6 April 2017 (who are protected currently). However, those moving from legacy benefits will get a transitional protection - there is no 2 year limit on that, no idea where you got that from.

    Please do read those regulations.

    IQ
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