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    • chrissy3634
    • By chrissy3634 4th Jul 18, 9:08 AM
    • 298Posts
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    chrissy3634
    edundancy by phone call after working with company for 12 years
    • #1
    • 4th Jul 18, 9:08 AM
    edundancy by phone call after working with company for 12 years 4th Jul 18 at 9:08 AM
    My son received a phone call from HR just before the weekend to say his role was redundant

    He has now been told his role has been transferred to an office in Europe ( same company) but he wasn't given the option to accept this position

    He's gutted! Any advice please?
    Last edited by chrissy3634; 05-07-2018 at 9:28 AM. Reason: wrong info
Page 1
    • JessyRM
    • By JessyRM 4th Jul 18, 10:41 AM
    • 44 Posts
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    JessyRM
    • #2
    • 4th Jul 18, 10:41 AM
    • #2
    • 4th Jul 18, 10:41 AM
    It depends on several factors, has he got two years service and therefore qualifies for redundancy? Or are they just using the wrong language to terminate his position.

    Edit: just saw your title.

    Was he put at risk of redundancy prior to the phone call?

    Under redundancy law the company should attempt to find a suitable alternative role, they may be able to argue that the new role was not suitable for him as he would need to relocate but it does sound unfair. He might be better getting advice from his union or ACAS.
    Last edited by JessyRM; 04-07-2018 at 10:53 AM.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 4th Jul 18, 12:28 PM
    • 5,642 Posts
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    sangie595
    • #3
    • 4th Jul 18, 12:28 PM
    • #3
    • 4th Jul 18, 12:28 PM
    Transfer to a European office, even if he wanted it, is highly unlikely to now be a viable option for suitable alternative employment. Assuming he knows the required languages, and is willing to relocate (very likely at his own expense), then it is quite possible that he would be unable to subsequently obtain the required work visas once the UK leaves the European Union. We decided to pull out of the single market - inability to freely work in other European countries is one of the consequences. Whilst there are likely to be some protections in place for people currently working in another European country (if a deal is struck), that isn't likely to apply to anyone leaning the UK for work now or in the future. And even that uncertainty would make it quite reasonable for the employer to refuse any consideration of relocation.

    So it's just a standard redundancy, unless the company has policy otherwise. They need to consult with him, look at whether there are suitable alternatives, and if not he'd be served notice.

    We are heading more and more stories of this happening. Even in UK companies. Because the only way that they can continue took access the single market and do business with many of their existing clients is to move operations to Europe. There isn't a substantial counter balance happening. Basically, Europe is a bigger market than the UK and many of our companies have no choice but to retain their markets in Europe by relocations.
    • hyubh
    • By hyubh 4th Jul 18, 9:28 PM
    • 2,302 Posts
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    hyubh
    • #4
    • 4th Jul 18, 9:28 PM
    • #4
    • 4th Jul 18, 9:28 PM
    We are heading more and more stories of this happening. Even in UK companies. Because the only way that they can continue took access the single market and do business with many of their existing clients is to move operations to Europe. There isn't a substantial counter balance happening. Basically, Europe is a bigger market than the UK and many of our companies have no choice but to retain their markets in Europe by relocations.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Not so what the Remainiac coda really added to the main body of your reply, to be honest! Should chrissy3634 pray to the 12 stars for forgiveness or something...?
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 4th Jul 18, 9:55 PM
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    sangie595
    • #5
    • 4th Jul 18, 9:55 PM
    • #5
    • 4th Jul 18, 9:55 PM
    Not so what the Remainiac coda really added to the main body of your reply, to be honest! Should chrissy3634 pray to the 12 stars for forgiveness or something...?
    Originally posted by hyubh
    You don't really know what my personal opinions are. And in any case, the matter is settled so it is irrelevant. So these are contextual facts. We are hearing more and more of these stories, and the reasons we are hearing them is because companies are looking to protect their markets. It is really irrelevant whether people were for or against leaving now. The practical application of that decision is causing job losses in the UK. In many cases those job losses are the only way that other jobs can be retained - Many British jobs are very dependant on us being able to continue to access the European market, which is why this is happening. Of course, there'll be an upturn in the economy and many more jobs when Trump delivers his much promised, but so far totally invisible, favourable new trade deals with the UK.....

    So no, I am not arguing to remain and I am not putting an argument for doing so. I am pointing out the facts. They are facts whatever your position on this was or is. And there will be a lot more of these "facts" in the coming year.
    • hyubh
    • By hyubh 5th Jul 18, 8:07 AM
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    hyubh
    • #6
    • 5th Jul 18, 8:07 AM
    • #6
    • 5th Jul 18, 8:07 AM
    You don't really know what my personal opinions are. And in any case, the matter is settled so it is irrelevant.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Indeed it is!

    So these are contextual facts. We are hearing more and more of these stories, and the reasons we are hearing them is because companies are looking to protect their markets. It is really irrelevant whether people were for or against leaving now. The practical application of that decision is causing job losses in the UK. In many cases those job losses are the only way that other jobs can be retained - Many British jobs are very dependant on us being able to continue to access the European market, which is why this is happening. Of course, there'll be an upturn in the economy and many more jobs when Trump delivers his much promised, but so far totally invisible, favourable new trade deals with the UK.....
    Blimey, your personal opinions assessment of the facts of the matter really are obscure
    • chrissy3634
    • By chrissy3634 5th Jul 18, 9:11 AM
    • 298 Posts
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    chrissy3634
    • #7
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:11 AM
    • #7
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:11 AM
    Thank you for all your replies
    • AstroTurtle
    • By AstroTurtle 5th Jul 18, 9:30 AM
    • 247 Posts
    • 678 Thanks
    AstroTurtle
    • #8
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:30 AM
    • #8
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:30 AM
    You don't really know what my personal opinions are. And in any case, the matter is settled so it is irrelevant. So these are contextual facts. We are hearing more and more of these stories, and the reasons we are hearing them is because companies are looking to protect their markets. It is really irrelevant whether people were for or against leaving now. The practical application of that decision is causing job losses in the UK. In many cases those job losses are the only way that other jobs can be retained - Many British jobs are very dependant on us being able to continue to access the European market, which is why this is happening. Of course, there'll be an upturn in the economy and many more jobs when Trump delivers his much promised, but so far totally invisible, favourable new trade deals with the UK.....

    So no, I am not arguing to remain and I am not putting an argument for doing so. I am pointing out the facts. They are facts whatever your position on this was or is. And there will be a lot more of these "facts" in the coming year.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    "im not putting an arguement for doing so... so here's my arguement"

    The person wanted a question about redundancy procedures.

    You went straight for the brexit jugular of this is what you get.

    How do you know it's a result of that job losses happened before Brexit too you know? or did you fancy a rant.
    • Paul_DNAP
    • By Paul_DNAP 5th Jul 18, 10:19 AM
    • 296 Posts
    • 355 Thanks
    Paul_DNAP
    • #9
    • 5th Jul 18, 10:19 AM
    • #9
    • 5th Jul 18, 10:19 AM
    My son received a phone call from HR just before the weekend to say his role was redundant

    He has now been told his role has been transferred to an office in Europe ( same company) but he wasn't given the option to accept this position

    He's gutted! Any advice please?
    Originally posted by chrissy3634

    By phone? Ouch, that's harsh.
    The only practical advice is that he'd better get his pencil sharpened and get to work on his CV and start the job hunt while working whatever notice they insist on. If they want him to train his successor he is quite within his rights to refuse because if his position is redundant how can there be a successor, but then it costs nothing to be nice and he may say that he will do it if it guarantees him a glowing reference.
    (Although I could be wrong, I often am.)
    • tacpot12
    • By tacpot12 5th Jul 18, 10:44 AM
    • 1,496 Posts
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    tacpot12
    While being told of your redundancy by phone may not be the normal way it is done, there are some advantages for both the employer and the employee.

    Unfortunately, being made redundant is an experience that is pretty common, and so learning to respond positively to the announcement is a good thing. Your son may find a better job, and do so quickly. I was made redundant on three months notice, started job hunting in my last two weeks and got a job paying twice as much and started on the Monday after finishing with the last employer on the Friday! I had no loss of earning, doubled my salary and got 12,000 redundancy payout, so it is not necessarily a bad thing.

    If your son is prepared to move to Europe, he should let HR know. They will generally assume that people will not want to move, but this could be a great career move, and if he learns the language who knows where it could lead.
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 5th Jul 18, 11:05 AM
    • 2,181 Posts
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    silverwhistle
    Indeed it is!

    Blimey, your personal opinions assessment of the facts of the matter really are obscure
    Originally posted by hyubh

    My personal opinion is that a lump hammer hitting your leg will hurt. (Actually, this is based on experience). You appear to be of the opinion that you'll only accept that by experiencing a lump hammer against your leg.


    So pray, do tell which part of Sangie's post you dispute. As one of the most helpful posters here I don't see any particular issue of fact where she is inaccurate.



    From the facts here it does appear the company may not have followed consultation procedures. Is there a union involved?
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 5th Jul 18, 11:21 AM
    • 5,642 Posts
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    sangie595
    "im not putting an arguement for doing so... so here's my arguement"

    The person wanted a question about redundancy procedures.

    You went straight for the brexit jugular of this is what you get.

    How do you know it's a result of that job losses happened before Brexit too you know? or did you fancy a rant.
    Originally posted by AstroTurtle
    I said no such thing. The only person ranting here is the "leavers". Like you. The reason why relocation to Europe would probably not be a viable alternative, which it might have been in the past, is directly related to the current situation, regardless of why we are in it. For people in similar situations in our union, in the past transferring to another office in Europe would have been an option, and many people did. That is no longer an option, and the lack of a deal on BREXIT that allows this to continue to be an option is the reason. That's a fact. It's a fact whether people voted leave or remain.

    I referred to a very specific situation of job losses, and a specific situation of which we have current experience. If you are capable of reading the news you will read others saying the same thing. Today it is Jaguar Landrover. Burying ones head in the sand and ignoring the fact that these things are happening will not present any solutions. You are attempting to resurrect an argument that is over. I am talking about the here and now, and the future. There were consequences to staying in, and consequences to leaving. It is no longer theoretical, so we are left dealing with the consequences of leaving. Are you suggesting that there aren't any, because if you are, you appear to be in a small minority?

    Now you've made your points that you are in favour of leaving the European Union, and that you appear to still be engaged in a fight to do so despite the fact that the vote has happened. Meanwhile, the rest of us need to get on with dealing with what is now happening, not what happened two years ago. I'm not discussing this any further with you.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 5th Jul 18, 11:35 AM
    • 5,642 Posts
    • 9,756 Thanks
    sangie595

    From the facts here it does appear the company may not have followed consultation procedures. Is there a union involved?
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    To be fair, that isn't clear. The role has been declared redundant and he had been notified of that. Personally, I think a phone call is a poor way of doing it, but we don't know the circumstances. But the call may very well have been "we are deciding to make this role redundant, we wanted to let you know what is happening and we'll be discussing it more with you next week". For a single job, the consultation is rather perfunctory. And, in all honesty, employers have pretty much made the decision by the time they tell people - consultation is more of an opportunity to consider things they may not have thought of rather than a genuine discussion of their employees opinions on the matter. And realistically no tribunal thinks otherwise. So provided they do look at whether there are alternative jobs available etc, then the method of delivering the news is really not much more than a matter of opinion as to the best way to have done it. I wouldn't have done it by phone. But others may think it's kinder - or possibly the only practical way of doing it if HR is based elsewhere?
    • hyubh
    • By hyubh 5th Jul 18, 7:36 PM
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    hyubh
    So pray, do tell which part of Sangie's post you dispute.
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    No need to pray, it was in the first line of my first post to this thread (viz., all fine and dandy until the pro-Remain venting at the end). PS - I voted Remain too!

    As one of the most helpful posters here I don't see any particular issue of fact where she is inaccurate.
    You may be shocked to hear, but I will click the 'Thanks' button against her posts on occasion, and without Sangie ever doing the same when I politely correct a slight mistake on her part. I even (unironically) welcomed her back to regular posting recently...
    • woolly_wombat
    • By woolly_wombat 18th Jul 18, 12:23 PM
    • 594 Posts
    • 395 Thanks
    woolly_wombat
    I'm very sorry for your son OP. I hope he finds another job soon.

    I understood that there had to be some sort of prior consultation with the workforce when redundancies were under consideration. Did this take place?


    We are heading more and more stories of this happening. Even in UK companies. Because the only way that they can continue took access the single market and do business with many of their existing clients is to move operations to Europe. There isn't a substantial counter balance happening. Basically, Europe is a bigger market than the UK and many of our companies have no choice but to retain their markets in Europe by relocations.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Highly relevant in the context of the OP having said that their son has "been told his role has been transferred to an office in Europe".

    I pray that one of my offspring (working in creative service sector, not protected by proposed agreement) will not be made redundant but, realistically, OH and I have very real concerns that this could be a reality that she may have to face too.
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