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  • FIRST POST
    • SpideressUK
    • By SpideressUK 3rd Jul 18, 8:22 PM
    • 144Posts
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    SpideressUK
    Inheritance Tax/Care Home Fees/Depravation Assets
    • #1
    • 3rd Jul 18, 8:22 PM
    Inheritance Tax/Care Home Fees/Depravation Assets 3rd Jul 18 at 8:22 PM
    Possibly not the exact correct forum but was the nearest that seemed relevant. My mum is still alive (age 74) but wants to sell her house and live with a family member (initially my brother and his family) as she needs help with cooking, dressing etc. Can anyone tell me if she is allowed to gift a large chunk of the house sale (100K between two children) to her children (keeping 20K or so for herself) and have the children "safe" from a potential future care home point of view?


    I have read that inheritance tax starts at 325K and mum has no where near that so presumably there is no inheritance tax. Her intent is to live with a family member (and that is our intent for her) until her death. Our concern is what if her health needs become too great a year or two from now whereby she needs hoists etc and night-time assistance etc so has to go into a care home. Would the care home be saying that she has "depravation" of her assets from gifting the 100k bulk of the sale from the house to her children?


    In order for it to be feasible for one of the children and their family to have her with them they need that 50K to be able to clear debts (costing 500 pm in min interest payment) so that they can then rent/buy a much larger living facility which will allow them their "space" and mum her own "space" within the building.
Page 5
    • elsien
    • By elsien 5th Jul 18, 6:49 PM
    • 16,738 Posts
    • 42,234 Thanks
    elsien
    Just wanted to say that I'm glad that your mum has you in her corner trying to do what's best for her (as opposed to your leach of a brother who appears to be bleeding her dry financially).
    Originally posted by Cheeky_Monkey
    Actually yes, the more I think about it the crosser I'm getting. He's not renting a bigger house at the moment and there's no way she's costing him 800 pm so there is no justification to take that amount from her. He is using her.

    There is always the option of housing with care she could look into. That is renting, so there will be a cost implication, but it's a step up from warden controlled in terms of the support on offer. The number of care visits would be assessed and may well be the 4 a day as before. The positives are that there are communal lunches people can buy if they wish, more company/activities, help if there is an emergency in between calls but people have their own flats so can cook if they wish.
    The local authority would have more information. However under the Care Act assessments depend on where mum is "ordinarily resident" and as she's been away from home for so long there may be a bit of a debate about where home now is. But she is still entitled to an assessment regardless. That's where your 4 a day visits would have come from initially.

    Can't say I blame your SIL for having reservation about the set up in the longer term. Chances are she's the one who'll end up doing the bulk of the caring and it's a big ask for someone you're not related to.
    Last edited by elsien; 05-07-2018 at 6:54 PM.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • SpideressUK
    • By SpideressUK 5th Jul 18, 6:53 PM
    • 144 Posts
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    SpideressUK
    Actually yes, the more I think about it the crosser I'm getting. He's not renting a bigger house at the moment and there's no way she's costing him 800 pm so there is no justification to take that amount from her. He is using her.

    There is always the option of housing with care she could look into. That is renting, so there will be a cost implication, but it's a step up from warden controlled in terms of the support on offer. The number of care visits would be assessed and may well be the 4 a day as before. The positives are that there are communal lunches people can buy if they wish, more company/activities, help if there is an emergency in between calls but people have their own flats so can cook if they wish.
    The local authority would have more information. However under the Care Act assessments depend on where mum is "ordinarily resident" and as she's been away from home for so long there may be a bit of a debate about where home now is. But she is still entitled to an assessment regardless. That's where your 4 a day visits would have come from initially.
    Originally posted by elsien
    Thanks. I will look into "housing with care "
    • YoungBlueEyes
    • By YoungBlueEyes 5th Jul 18, 9:12 PM
    • 251 Posts
    • 283 Thanks
    YoungBlueEyes
    The housing with care sounds like a good plan. It sounds like if she bought a flat of her own near you she'd be round at yours all day anyway, as her own flat doesn't address the loneliness/loving the grandkids part.

    Genuine question - what do the 'further down the line when I cannot look after her/ has to go in a home' type comments mean? Where do people draw the line? What's 'too much' to cope with at home?
    • SpideressUK
    • By SpideressUK 5th Jul 18, 9:34 PM
    • 144 Posts
    • 70 Thanks
    SpideressUK
    The housing with care sounds like a good plan. It sounds like if she bought a flat of her own near you she'd be round at yours all day anyway, as her own flat doesn't address the loneliness/loving the grandkids part.

    Genuine question - what do the 'further down the line when I cannot look after her/ has to go in a home' type comments mean? Where do people draw the line? What's 'too much' to cope with at home?
    Originally posted by YoungBlueEyes
    For us it would be if she became violent. First we have to protect our young children. If it were just us I'd cope with violence as long as I could. That would really be the only thing. We could manage hoists and the like.
    • SevenOfNine
    • By SevenOfNine 6th Jul 18, 8:50 AM
    • 1,354 Posts
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    SevenOfNine
    Just as a rough guide, my elderly dementia FiL (deceased recently & I've been through every inch of his income/expenditure), lived in a 3 bedroom house on his own for 14 months since MiL died.

    Every bill you can possibly ever think of including nearly 500pm for homecare visits that had to start, absolutely everything (even Sky sport, dentures & toenail cutting) accounted for EXCEPT food, averaged out at 1093 pm the 14 month period.

    There is no way your mum is costing 800 to live with your brother, perhaps he feels he can charge her more because SiL is providing a level of 'care'? An LA aren't going to see it like that.

    My BiL burned through a further 12k of the old guy's money when all he actually had to pay for was his food. I suppose it was fortuitous that FiL died just as it became increasingly obvious he need a care home, because BiL would have had some questions to answer as soon as LA looked at the bank statements.

    TBH SpideressUK we'd been a little like you, a bit 'head in sand' as things chugged along with BiL 'in charge', fooled by the 'devoted son' act.

    Also, you should chat with the estate agent before knocking yourself out on the decorating. We cleared 65 years of personal possessions, left all the tatty, knackered old furnishings (including stair lift), didn't decorate or clean a single room, massive garden full of junk, just as the estate agent instructed us to.

    House sold 'as is', got an offer of our asking price within 1 day of it going on the market, & two more the day after that.
    Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it.
    • SpideressUK
    • By SpideressUK 6th Jul 18, 9:13 AM
    • 144 Posts
    • 70 Thanks
    SpideressUK
    Just as a rough guide, my elderly dementia FiL (deceased recently & I've been through every inch of his income/expenditure), lived in a 3 bedroom house on his own for 14 months since MiL died.

    Every bill you can possibly ever think of including nearly 500pm for homecare visits that had to start, absolutely everything (even Sky sport, dentures & toenail cutting) accounted for EXCEPT food, averaged out at 1093 pm the 14 month period.

    There is no way your mum is costing 800 to live with your brother, perhaps he feels he can charge her more because SiL is providing a level of 'care'? An LA aren't going to see it like that.

    My BiL burned through a further 12k of the old guy's money when all he actually had to pay for was his food. I suppose it was fortuitous that FiL died just as it became increasingly obvious he need a care home, because BiL would have had some questions to answer as soon as LA looked at the bank statements.

    TBH SpideressUK we'd been a little like you, a bit 'head in sand' as things chugged along with BiL 'in charge', fooled by the 'devoted son' act.

    Also, you should chat with the estate agent before knocking yourself out on the decorating. We cleared 65 years of personal possessions, left all the tatty, knackered old furnishings (including stair lift), didn't decorate or clean a single room, massive garden full of junk, just as the estate agent instructed us to.

    House sold 'as is', got an offer of our asking price within 1 day of it going on the market, & two more the day after that.
    Originally posted by SevenOfNine
    Thanks, that's great info. I already painted the kitchen and I did hall/stairs/landing last night (inspite of my paint roller breaking and an emergency dash to the corner shop!). I know it's likely all the plaster will be knocked off but at least I know I left our family home "clean". Im the kind of woman who strips all the bedding and folds it after a hotel stay and piles all the plates up after a restaurant meal :-) I don't want strangers thinking my parents were "dirty" - they were just infirm/elderly and my mum was SUCH a hoarder! I want my parents thought of as the incredible lovely people they are (or were in my dad's case) hard working, self sacrificing and born again Christians who have provided the strong foundation of my life.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 6th Jul 18, 9:18 AM
    • 22,028 Posts
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    lisyloo
    Where do people draw the line?
    Common issue with elderly people/dimensia are


    wandering off on their own (if able)
    accidentally setting things on fire

    losing things - could be cash or expensive hearings
    blaming other e.g. accusing other of stealing cash
    losing keys


    all of those things could have a serious impact on others


    It was "easy" for us a all of us work or look after small children.
    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 6th Jul 18, 3:07 PM
    • 1,792 Posts
    • 2,419 Thanks
    badmemory
    plus the refusal to go to the toilet even though the need was obvious and then there are the inappropriate sexual comments & this is not restricted to men.


    However there may never be any signs of dementia. I've known a couple of people who showed no signs (incl my mother) until a couple of weeks stay in hospital.


    Topping up her income with the 20/30k would hardly pay for the care home fees for 2 years. Also as she would have savings from the balance of the home plus whatever savings she made from her income less any additional costs, so that would be a couple of years before any assessment was required. If you are self funding your financial affairs are no-one else's business. To be absolutely brutal here - few people last over 3 years in a care home.
    • SpideressUK
    • By SpideressUK 6th Jul 18, 4:00 PM
    • 144 Posts
    • 70 Thanks
    SpideressUK
    It has been decided mum cannot stay long term with my brother and his wife/family not even if they got a "granny flat" type thing rented on a bigger place so she is coming back up north just as soon as we can get the house sold. I am trying to find her a place near me - there is a perfect place for sale right now - 60K 75% shared ownership all ground floor, 2 bedroom, walk in shower etc and less than a mile from me...............if we can get a sale through quickly and get that for her then that will be ideal as I can meet a lot of her care needs myself and no DOA issues, at least not in that area anyway. I just hope it can all be done otherwise we are facing a house extn granny flat type thing and potential DOA ourselves.
    • margaretclare
    • By margaretclare 6th Jul 18, 7:27 PM
    • 10,158 Posts
    • 17,193 Thanks
    margaretclare
    It has been decided mum cannot stay long term with my brother and his wife/family not even if they got a "granny flat" type thing rented on a bigger place so she is coming back up north just as soon as we can get the house sold. I am trying to find her a place near me - there is a perfect place for sale right now - 60K 75% shared ownership all ground floor, 2 bedroom, walk in shower etc and less than a mile from me...............if we can get a sale through quickly and get that for her then that will be ideal as I can meet a lot of her care needs myself and no DOA issues, at least not in that area anyway. I just hope it can all be done otherwise we are facing a house extn granny flat type thing and potential DOA ourselves.
    Originally posted by SpideressUK

    It's really good that there has at last been a decision and you can look forward, without all these ifs and buts, maybes and indecision.


    Walk-in shower is great. You can actually get them including a seat, which is what we have (although neither of us has needed to sit down to shower - not yet, anyway). If there isn't room for a seat fixed in, occupational health can supply things like a plastic chair to go in there.


    Poor mum will be able to have her own income back again rather than giving it all to her son.
    r ic wisdom funde, r wear ic eald.
    Before I found wisdom, I became old.
    • SpideressUK
    • By SpideressUK 6th Jul 18, 7:53 PM
    • 144 Posts
    • 70 Thanks
    SpideressUK
    It's really good that there has at last been a decision and you can look forward, without all these ifs and buts, maybes and indecision.


    Walk-in shower is great. You can actually get them including a seat, which is what we have (although neither of us has needed to sit down to shower - not yet, anyway). If there isn't room for a seat fixed in, occupational health can supply things like a plastic chair to go in there.


    Poor mum will be able to have her own income back again rather than giving it all to her son.
    Originally posted by margaretclare
    Yes, I just hope that somehow we can reserve this flat for her so she does not lose it whilst waiting for her house to sell.
    • SpideressUK
    • By SpideressUK 13th Jul 18, 9:14 AM
    • 144 Posts
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    SpideressUK
    My mum's house is on the market now but is there any way to get her 65K (to be paid back when the house sells) so she can compete for this flat that is near me - there is already one offer in against it but not yet accepted. I phoned my mortgage provider to see if it can be added onto my mortgage (and then that extra 65K be repaid in full once her house sells but they say the rules changed and you cannot borrow more money against your mortgage (it is to protect you from losing your home).


    I looked at "Bridging Loans" and it seems quite complicated - I think 1,300 ish in set up fees then interest to pay (presumably per month) @ 0.49% or something which I assume would be 0.49% of 65,000 so she would have to find 318 per month until that 65K could be paid off from the house sale? Are there any other options for her to raise that kind of money?
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 13th Jul 18, 9:38 AM
    • 5,204 Posts
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    Keep pedalling
    My mum's house is on the market now but is there any way to get her 65K (to be paid back when the house sells) so she can compete for this flat that is near me - there is already one offer in against it but not yet accepted. I phoned my mortgage provider to see if it can be added onto my mortgage (and then that extra 65K be repaid in full once her house sells but they say the rules changed and you cannot borrow more money against your mortgage (it is to protect you from losing your home).


    I looked at "Bridging Loans" and it seems quite complicated - I think 1,300 ish in set up fees then interest to pay (presumably per month) @ 0.49% or something which I assume would be 0.49% of 65,000 so she would have to find 318 per month until that 65K could be paid off from the house sale? Are there any other options for her to raise that kind of money?
    Originally posted by SpideressUK

    You would be better off asking this question over on the loans or mortgages board.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 13th Jul 18, 11:35 AM
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    lisyloo
    but they say the rules changed and you cannot borrow more money against your mortgage

    You could re-mortgage if you have the income and LTV to allow it, but the application, valution process usually takes a couple of weeks.
    What they mightbe saying is that they don't want to lend for the reason given (which is their choice as it's their risk).


    Bridging loans are the product for this pupose but it's a risk for her.
    What is her house doesn't sell for a year? or longer?


    so she would have to find 318 per month until that 65K could be paid off from the house sale?

    Well yes of course she's going to have to pay interest to borrow money.


    There isn't an easy answer unless there is a family memeber who's willing to lend the money.
    • brewthebear
    • By brewthebear 13th Jul 18, 11:37 AM
    • 140 Posts
    • 142 Thanks
    brewthebear
    Really glad the greedy son is not going to get his mums money. I know a scenario similar where the son takes all the allowances while the mother lives in squalor no hot meals at all know but dont give a ****

    The fact that the son has 50k of debt tells a story how did he accrue that, and whats to stop him doing the same again.No morals taking all that money every month.

    Thankfully the mum has another child who cares enough what happens to her.
    • SpideressUK
    • By SpideressUK 13th Jul 18, 11:46 AM
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    SpideressUK
    You could re-mortgage if you have the income and LTV to allow it, but the application, valution process usually takes a couple of weeks.
    What they mightbe saying is that they don't want to lend for the reason given (which is their choice as it's their risk).

    Bridging loans are the product for this pupose but it's a risk for her.
    What is her house doesn't sell for a year? or longer?

    Well yes of course she's going to have to pay interest to borrow money.


    There isn't an easy answer unless there is a family memeber who's willing to lend the money.
    Originally posted by lisyloo

    I think I have finally ruled out all my options of getting 65k for her.


    I can re-mortgage (which suprised me as I am not working now and last time I asked was told no one would ever give us a mortage on hubby's income) but it would take my mortgage from 210 pm to 700 pm - we certainly cannot cover an extra 490 pm and mum has no monthly money since my brother takes it all. Plus, even if the house sold and the 65K was paid back into my mortgage (that I increased it for to give mum the 65K for the flat) there would still be arrangement fees to cover and potentially a higher interest rate deal than the one now on (currently on a very good mortage deal) so that option went kaput.


    I tried asking about a 65K personal loan - they only loan 60K apparently - turns out not allowed to do that as you are not allowed to use a personal loan to buy a house for someone (or maybe just buy a house in general).


    I tried these 2nd mortgage loan against you own home things........whilst we pass with flying colours on credit rating and house equity we fail on "affordability" as we pretty much live hand-to-mouth every month so her only real option seem to be Bridging loan which would be incredibly expensive or the loss of the perfect flat.


    If worst comes to worst mum can probably by a normal smallish house near me for 70K ish and have a bed in the front room, permanently use a commode and wash down in the sink (which is what she would have been doing had she stayed in the family home anyway) but at least she will be near enough to me to go care for her every day.


    I am now likely to have to fend off ten zillion sales calls offering me loans.......
    • SpideressUK
    • By SpideressUK 13th Jul 18, 11:50 AM
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    • 70 Thanks
    SpideressUK
    Really glad the greedy son is not going to get his mums money. I know a scenario similar where the son takes all the allowances while the mother lives in squalor no hot meals at all know but dont give a ****

    The fact that the son has 50k of debt tells a story how did he accrue that, and whats to stop him doing the same again.No morals taking all that money every month.

    Thankfully the mum has another child who cares enough what happens to her.
    Originally posted by brewthebear

    He actually has a 30K debt the other 20K was potentially going to deposit on a bigger house for them all to live in. Some of the 30K came from student loan, some from his own stupidity and a lot from marrying a woman who comes from outside of the UK and for whom it cost about 4K a time for her to go back visit her family etc.



    IF he does finally get this 30K paid off by the house sale I will be *really* annoyed with him he if goes running debt up again. However, I think now he has finally learned to say "no" to his wife.
    • margaretclare
    • By margaretclare 14th Jul 18, 5:11 PM
    • 10,158 Posts
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    margaretclare
    If worst comes to worst mum can probably by a normal smallish house near me for 70K ish and have a bed in the front room, permanently use a commode and wash down in the sink (which is what she would have been doing had she stayed in the family home anyway) but at least she will be near enough to me to go care for her every day.

    It is possible nowadays with something called micro-plumbing to have a shower enclosure and loo in a cloakroom downstairs. Apparently more and more people are getting away from the idea of one loo and bathroom upstairs, especially with kids playing out in the garden etc.



    I grew up having to wash in the sink. That was then, this is now. I would NOT want to do that again for any reason whatsoever.



    Have a look at local bathroom installers. There are all sorts of options.
    r ic wisdom funde, r wear ic eald.
    Before I found wisdom, I became old.
    • SpideressUK
    • By SpideressUK 14th Jul 18, 5:15 PM
    • 144 Posts
    • 70 Thanks
    SpideressUK
    It is possible nowadays with something called micro-plumbing to have a shower enclosure and loo in a cloakroom downstairs. Apparently more and more people are getting away from the idea of one loo and bathroom upstairs, especially with kids playing out in the garden etc.



    I grew up having to wash in the sink. That was then, this is now. I would NOT want to do that again for any reason whatsoever.



    Have a look at local bathroom installers. There are all sorts of options.
    Originally posted by margaretclare
    Thanks. I'll look into that.
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