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  • FIRST POST
    • T-G-C
    • By T-G-C 1st Jul 18, 3:30 PM
    • 358Posts
    • 172Thanks
    T-G-C
    Satsuma Loans - Irresponsible Practice?
    • #1
    • 1st Jul 18, 3:30 PM
    Satsuma Loans - Irresponsible Practice? 1st Jul 18 at 3:30 PM
    This is more of a discussion rather than a rant, however I would like to address a serious flaw in Provident Finance's handling of Satsuma Loans' responsible lending practice.

    I will keep this short and basic, to avoid confusion. To put it in simple terms, Satsuma Loans themselves claim on their website that two (2) is the maximum number of loans that can be active at once.

    The evidence of this is here:



    Anyone who has an account with Satsuma Loans can independently check this for themselves, however the specific page detailing this appears to be locked from non-authenticated access.

    Courtesy of the person who has shared this information with me, I can also provide a list of agreements which this particular person has with them, currently all three of them:



    This is a picture illustration only and their corresponding personally identifiable information has been removed before publishing. I can confirm however, that all three agreements were granted amounts exceeding that of 200.

    For a creditor who claims to restrict lending to a specific number, their eligibility checking mechanism appears to have no recognition of the customer's current commitments. Aside from that, the credit assessment module should be taking these other loans into account, as part of a mandatory affordability assessment.

    I would also like to share with you that the person who has come forward with this information has been landed into difficult circumstances with trying to pay these loans off. After their income being reduced unexpectedly, they are now stuck with three individual loans, all totaling high amounts due to the up-front interest slapped on the total repayable balance. They are keeping up with the monthly re-payments, but are stuck in a long-term commitment of these loans and can't commit their remaining income elsewhere.

    I haven't been able to look into the legal side of this or whether the FCA, financial ombudsman or other related agencies would consider this irresponsible lending practices, however enticing someone who is potentially vulnerable or susceptible to borrowing with eligibility alerts about further loans, especially after stating that two is the maximum is bang out of order.

    What are your thoughts about this and could Satsuma Loans be adding to the ever-growing problem of irresponsible lending on the market?
    All advice provided is intended for guidance purposes only. For specialized debt advice, please contact either National Debtline or StepChange.
Page 1
    • zx81
    • By zx81 1st Jul 18, 4:14 PM
    • 18,620 Posts
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    zx81
    • #2
    • 1st Jul 18, 4:14 PM
    • #2
    • 1st Jul 18, 4:14 PM
    When did they introduce the two loan maximum?

    Before or after your friend took out their third loan?
    • T-G-C
    • By T-G-C 1st Jul 18, 4:20 PM
    • 358 Posts
    • 172 Thanks
    T-G-C
    • #3
    • 1st Jul 18, 4:20 PM
    • #3
    • 1st Jul 18, 4:20 PM
    When did they introduce the two loan maximum?

    Before or after your friend took out their third loan?
    Originally posted by zx81
    The information has been like that since the person became a customer, which was over 10 months ago.

    Even if it is a page which hasn't been updated, there is no alternative source on the site which states the number of loans granted is based on your credit history, therefore the overriding info for this is the referenced FAQ portion.
    All advice provided is intended for guidance purposes only. For specialized debt advice, please contact either National Debtline or StepChange.
    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 1st Jul 18, 11:36 PM
    • 1,608 Posts
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    boo_star
    • #4
    • 1st Jul 18, 11:36 PM
    • #4
    • 1st Jul 18, 11:36 PM
    The information has been like that since the person became a customer, which was over 10 months ago.

    Even if it is a page which hasn't been updated, there is no alternative source on the site which states the number of loans granted is based on your credit history, therefore the overriding info for this is the referenced FAQ portion.
    Originally posted by T-G-C
    Them going against their FAQ doesn't make it irresponsible lending. In fact a maximum of two rollovers meets the FCA guidelines.

    It looks, to me, like poor wording on their part.
    • dld2s
    • By dld2s 2nd Jul 18, 7:21 AM
    • 404 Posts
    • 217 Thanks
    dld2s
    • #5
    • 2nd Jul 18, 7:21 AM
    • #5
    • 2nd Jul 18, 7:21 AM
    Them going against their FAQ doesn't make it irresponsible lending. In fact a maximum of two rollovers meets the FCA guidelines.

    It looks, to me, like poor wording on their part.
    Originally posted by boo_star

    Not sure I get you? you say FCA guidelines: 2 loans rollover, does this mean in effect you can have 4 loans?
    Last edited by dld2s; 02-07-2018 at 7:22 AM. Reason: had man instead of mean
    • foxy-stoat
    • By foxy-stoat 2nd Jul 18, 2:18 PM
    • 2,667 Posts
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    foxy-stoat
    • #6
    • 2nd Jul 18, 2:18 PM
    • #6
    • 2nd Jul 18, 2:18 PM
    Seems crazy that your friend applied for the third loan knowing full well that the lender only allows 2 loans at any one time.
    • T-G-C
    • By T-G-C 3rd Jul 18, 4:33 PM
    • 358 Posts
    • 172 Thanks
    T-G-C
    • #7
    • 3rd Jul 18, 4:33 PM
    • #7
    • 3rd Jul 18, 4:33 PM
    Seems crazy that your friend applied for the third loan knowing full well that the lender only allows 2 loans at any one time.
    Originally posted by foxy-stoat
    I agree.

    However, it is even crazier that the lender has allowed someone to have a third loan, despite claiming the limit to be two at once. If this lender admitted that it was possible to have 3+ loans, perhaps the debtor wouldn't have opened an account with them? The debtor could have registered with them having the peace of mind that they can't have more than two loans with them at once, so they have been mislead in this aspect.

    Satsuma Loans are a direct lender and their automated decision making would include the previous loans, applications, credit file information and repayment history. There is no technical reason for a third loan being granted by mistake or as an oversight.

    It is the debtor's responsibility to ensure that their loan is affordable, but it is also the lender's responsibility to ensure credit is only granted when they are confident of the debtor's commitment to repay affordably and do not lead them into a cycle of debt. Three loans could be used consecutively to repay loans with more loans.
    Last edited by T-G-C; 03-07-2018 at 4:36 PM.
    All advice provided is intended for guidance purposes only. For specialized debt advice, please contact either National Debtline or StepChange.
    • T-G-C
    • By T-G-C 3rd Jul 18, 4:41 PM
    • 358 Posts
    • 172 Thanks
    T-G-C
    • #8
    • 3rd Jul 18, 4:41 PM
    • #8
    • 3rd Jul 18, 4:41 PM
    Them going against their FAQ doesn't make it irresponsible lending. In fact a maximum of two rollovers meets the FCA guidelines.

    It looks, to me, like poor wording on their part.
    Originally posted by boo_star
    Even if it is within FCA rules to grant a further two separate loans after the first one, totaling three, it is misleading for them to tell a debtor that the maximum is two at once and then entice them into more credit with a third after approval of the first or second.

    If they are compliant with the rules, their wording should clearly indicate that affordability may allow up-to three active loans at once. This may allow consumers to make a more educated decision about whether or not to use that particular lender. Some people may avoid them if they feel a third loan would be too tempting, therefore they aren't being made aware of it, hence potentially ending up in three loans worth of debt down the line, when they were originally told that they don't offer more than two.
    All advice provided is intended for guidance purposes only. For specialized debt advice, please contact either National Debtline or StepChange.
    • BrassicWoman
    • By BrassicWoman 3rd Jul 18, 6:01 PM
    • 1,754 Posts
    • 7,134 Thanks
    BrassicWoman
    • #9
    • 3rd Jul 18, 6:01 PM
    • #9
    • 3rd Jul 18, 6:01 PM
    what's the actual question here? Can I get out of paying? Can I pay less? Can I get them struck off?
    Jan 18 grocery challenge 105.13/ 150
    • T-G-C
    • By T-G-C 3rd Jul 18, 6:23 PM
    • 358 Posts
    • 172 Thanks
    T-G-C
    what's the actual question here? Can I get out of paying? Can I pay less? Can I get them struck off?
    Originally posted by BrassicWoman
    You wouldn't be able to get the debt written off, it is still legally enforceable regardless.

    The question is whether it is legal and compliant for them to state on their website that the maximum loan threshold is two, but offer a third agreement later down the line.

    For someone who may be in a vulnerable position e.g lower income or financial difficulty, a third loan offering may be too temping to decline, thereby causing further debt problems.
    All advice provided is intended for guidance purposes only. For specialized debt advice, please contact either National Debtline or StepChange.
    • BrassicWoman
    • By BrassicWoman 3rd Jul 18, 10:40 PM
    • 1,754 Posts
    • 7,134 Thanks
    BrassicWoman
    You wouldn't be able to get the debt written off, it is still legally enforceable regardless.

    The question is whether it is legal and compliant for them to state on their website that the maximum loan threshold is two, but offer a third agreement later down the line.

    For someone who may be in a vulnerable position e.g lower income or financial difficulty, a third loan offering may be too temping to decline, thereby causing further debt problems.
    Originally posted by T-G-C





    They also have a page listing debt advisory services


    https://www.satsumaloans.co.uk/money-worries/getting-advice


    So help for the vulnerable person who is presumabely an adult...


    This feels like a very theoretical question to me, "is it legal" can be yes/no but is totally irrelevant unless it leads to action.
    Jan 18 grocery challenge 105.13/ 150
    • ReadingTim
    • By ReadingTim 4th Jul 18, 3:05 PM
    • 2,934 Posts
    • 4,319 Thanks
    ReadingTim
    From the screenshot posted, it looks like the OP's "friend" has tried to take out 4th loan, which has been rejected because they've got 3 loans outstanding already. Perhaps understandably miffed, they've looked into why, and seen they should only have been allowed 2 loans in total, rather than the 3 they actually have and the 4th they were trying to take out.

    Personally, I think that the decline shows that Satsuma are a responsible lender, whereas this 4th application after an 'unexpected reduction in income' shows that the OP's "friend" is an irresponsible borrower
    • T-G-C
    • By T-G-C 4th Jul 18, 4:30 PM
    • 358 Posts
    • 172 Thanks
    T-G-C
    From the screenshot posted, it looks like the OP's "friend" has tried to take out 4th loan, which has been rejected because they've got 3 loans outstanding already. Perhaps understandably miffed, they've looked into why, and seen they should only have been allowed 2 loans in total, rather than the 3 they actually have and the 4th they were trying to take out.

    Personally, I think that the decline shows that Satsuma are a responsible lender, whereas this 4th application after an 'unexpected reduction in income' shows that the OP's "friend" is an irresponsible borrower
    Originally posted by ReadingTim
    The top bit about "not eligible" is shown to ALL customers who have a loan out with them, even if they haven't asked to check. It is one of their ways of enticing you into making another application - I am not disputing this practice, it is completely legal and I am the first to say that people need to have more self-control when it comes to credit. However, they didn't attempt a fourth. They took 3 out and then noticed the discrepancy on a random site visit, hence they asked me to check it out here, as I am a forum user and they aren't. They didn't make a fourth application, all 3 they made were accepted.

    I'm not disputing whether or not the person is irresponsible, they probably are, but I personally thought, as a previous Satsuma customer myself (glad to have got rid of them) that they were more honest than that. When they tell someone 2 is the maximum and then entice them into a 3rd loan, which is easy to do if someone is in a bad place, it's quite poor practice and a bit irresponsible on their part. This is about the offering of a 3rd loan, not any more.
    All advice provided is intended for guidance purposes only. For specialized debt advice, please contact either National Debtline or StepChange.
    • camelot1971
    • By camelot1971 4th Jul 18, 9:23 PM
    • 885 Posts
    • 1,354 Thanks
    camelot1971
    Have you actually asked Satsuma? If you are just talking about the principle and not a specific account I don't see why they wouldn't tell you.
    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 4th Jul 18, 11:05 PM
    • 1,608 Posts
    • 940 Thanks
    boo_star
    Even if it is within FCA rules to grant a further two separate loans after the first one, totaling three, it is misleading for them to tell a debtor that the maximum is two at once and then entice them into more credit with a third after approval of the first or second.

    If they are compliant with the rules, their wording should clearly indicate that affordability may allow up-to three active loans at once. This may allow consumers to make a more educated decision about whether or not to use that particular lender. Some people may avoid them if they feel a third loan would be too tempting, therefore they aren't being made aware of it, hence potentially ending up in three loans worth of debt down the line, when they were originally told that they don't offer more than two.
    Originally posted by T-G-C
    It's misleading in a way that isn't beneficial to the creditor though.

    They're telling people they won't lend when they will.

    I don't see why the FCA or the FOS would be interested in this.
    • fidget29
    • By fidget29 27th Jul 18, 1:08 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    fidget29
    I am pursuing an unaffordable lending claim against Satsuna. Is there any precedent for this (success)
    • foxy-stoat
    • By foxy-stoat 27th Jul 18, 1:54 PM
    • 2,667 Posts
    • 1,534 Thanks
    foxy-stoat
    Good luck and report back...not sure on success rates but if it were me I would take action against myself for irresponsible borrowing.
    • ffacoffipawb
    • By ffacoffipawb 28th Jul 18, 12:45 PM
    • 2,501 Posts
    • 1,656 Thanks
    ffacoffipawb
    I am pursuing an unaffordable lending claim against Satsuna. Is there any precedent for this (success)
    Originally posted by fidget29
    Hopefully not.
    • DCFC79
    • By DCFC79 28th Jul 18, 12:55 PM
    • 32,565 Posts
    • 20,488 Thanks
    DCFC79
    I am pursuing an unaffordable lending claim against Satsuna. Is there any precedent for this (success)
    Originally posted by fidget29
    I hope you will check over the form before you post it etc, could get thrown out if against the wrong firm.
    • dealer wins
    • By dealer wins 28th Jul 18, 1:49 PM
    • 5,981 Posts
    • 11,534 Thanks
    dealer wins
    Unaffordable lending, how does that work then lol
    Choose life
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