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  • FIRST POST
    • varghesejim
    • By varghesejim 30th Jun 18, 10:01 AM
    • 150Posts
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    varghesejim
    Move to allow parking only for owner occupiers in a flat block
    • #1
    • 30th Jun 18, 10:01 AM
    Move to allow parking only for owner occupiers in a flat block 30th Jun 18 at 10:01 AM
    Hello,

    I own a flat in a block of flats. All flat owners are equal shareholders of the blaock(via a residents association). The flat is rented out.

    Today I received a voting form to vote to allow only owner occupiers to park in the communal parking within the premises.

    I think it is very unfair on the people who are renting in the block. This makes the community two tier where the owner occupiers have certain extra rights in the communal area compared to the renters.

    Several questions I have

    1)Legally is it valid for a residents association to vote to restrict communal area to favour owner occupiers?

    2)What exactly are the legal powers of a residents association which owns the freehold when it comes to rights of the residents in a flat block? It is not right by voting the residents can take away the rights of certain people in the block?

    I think most of the occupiers in the block are owners. If by voting among shareholders owner-occupiers can take away some of the renters rights, it will lead to more restrictions I am afraid

    By the way I don't think practically the renters will have any issues as the road next to the block have enough free parking(which most of the residents use anyway). It is the principle it is bugging me
Page 2
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Jul 18, 4:25 PM
    • 59,444 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    I'd go down that line too, but adding the case that IamEmanresu cited which is so similar, and was upheld on appeal.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • varghesejim
    • By varghesejim 5th Jul 18, 5:31 PM
    • 150 Posts
    • 52 Thanks
    varghesejim
    I'd go down that line too, but adding the case that IamEmanresu cited which is so similar, and was upheld on appeal.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    To start with, I sent them an email

    Hello,

    Thank you for your mail. The parking restrictions idea is not looking good and sounds discriminatory. I would like to know some background information on the issue. Will you be able to get the answers for the following queries from the directors please?

    1)Why do they want to restrict non owners from parking within the development?

    2)What authority the residence association are using to bring in the parking restrictions?
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 5th Jul 18, 5:43 PM
    • 1,935 Posts
    • 2,593 Thanks
    NeilCr
    To start with, I sent them an email

    Hello,

    Thank you for your mail. The parking restrictions idea is not looking good and sounds discriminatory. I would like to know some background information on the issue. Will you be able to get the answers for the following queries from the directors please?

    1)Why do they want to restrict non owners from parking within the development?

    2)What authority the residence association are using to bring in the parking restrictions?
    Originally posted by varghesejim
    When did you send this?

    I'd, definitely, not send anything else until you have had a reply (did you get an acknowledgement?) or an amount of time has passed without response.
    • varghesejim
    • By varghesejim 5th Jul 18, 5:49 PM
    • 150 Posts
    • 52 Thanks
    varghesejim
    When did you send this?

    I'd, definitely, not send anything else until you have had a reply (did you get an acknowledgement?) or an amount of time has passed without response.
    Originally posted by NeilCr
    I sent it today around 1 pm. I delayed because I couldn't decide on what to write.

    in the original mail from management company they gave us time for voting till 14th.
    yes, can wait for a couple of days
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Jul 18, 5:59 PM
    • 59,444 Posts
    • 72,602 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    IMHO you must circulate something to the other residents now, before they vote blindly.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • varghesejim
    • By varghesejim 6th Jul 18, 5:29 PM
    • 150 Posts
    • 52 Thanks
    varghesejim
    To start with, I sent them an email

    Hello,

    Thank you for your mail. The parking restrictions idea is not looking good and sounds discriminatory. I would like to know some background information on the issue. Will you be able to get the answers for the following queries from the directors please?

    1)Why do they want to restrict non owners from parking within the development?

    2)What authority the residence association are using to bring in the parking restrictions?
    Originally posted by varghesejim
    Got a response from management agent



    At the AGM there were a couple of Owner/occupiers (especially the ones with children and elderly !!who find it difficult to park their cars as often the spaces are used up by people who do not move their cars all week or do not park considerately making some spaces difficult to use, i.e. perhaps they go to work by train etc.,) and they expressed a desire to be able to restrict the parking to those who own a property and live there permanently.


    As this provoked a fairly lengthy discussion !from both views and could not be voted on at the AGM as it was brought up Any Other Business it was agreed that we as Managing Agents would write to all Owners asking them to vote as each Owner is !a Shareholder of the Management Company who own the Freehold.Once the votes are in we will pass them onto the Directors.,. and depending on how the vote goes the Directors of the management company! will then have a further meeting and advise us of their thoughts on the matter.

    We checked the Lease following the AGM and confirmed the spaces are not designated to any particular flat or even visitors parking. I hope this clarifies.
    Last edited by varghesejim; 06-07-2018 at 6:14 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Jul 18, 12:29 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    So now you move on to the stronger version:

    I'd go down that line too, but adding the case that IamEmanresu cited which is so similar, and was upheld on appeal.
    And politely (URGENTLY THIS WEEKEND) circulate ALL residents with a note explaining all that is wrong with the idea, not least because any 'restriction/permit' scheme would require some stinking scumbag ex-clamper to maraud around everyone's cars looking for excuses to fine people who live there, even those with permits.

    It's a case of be careful what they wish for - tell them how terrible the idea is.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 7th Jul 18, 6:41 AM
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    NeilCr
    So now you move on to the stronger version:



    And politely (URGENTLY THIS WEEKEND) circulate ALL residents with a note explaining all that is wrong with the idea, not least because any 'restriction/permit' scheme would require some stinking scumbag ex-clamper to maraud around everyone's cars looking for excuses to fine people who live there, even those with permits.

    It's a case of be careful what they wish for - tell them how terrible the idea is.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I have to agree with the idea of canvassing all other residents. You are much more likely to get somewhere with support. However, you need to be in touch with the flat owners - not the tenants who have no vote. You want a list of owners addresses - you should be able to obtain that from the MA. Failing that any letter through the door should be addressed to the owner - and hope the tenant passes it on. Perhaps a covering letter saying "please if you are the tenant send this to your landlord. It is about parking and may affect you"

    C-M (or anyone else). Genuine question. The case cited by Ian involved the lady having (it appears) an allocated space which was in her lease taken away from her. There are no such "rights" in the OP's situation or lease. I can see there is a detriment in that they will lose the chance to park in the car park. However, they only really have, at best, a one in two chance now and many are happy - because it is easier for them - to use the on street parking available. It just doesn't seem as strong to me. Is it enough to still cite the 5% loss?

    OP. I really hope you win this because the attitude of some of the owner occupiers stinks. . I am sure there are tenants with children, too, and, possibly, some who are elderly. In this instance I'd be less worried about a PPC being brought in than the attempted take over (which we discussed in the other thread) by a few residents of the MC

    However, I suspect that you are going to have to put in some hard yards which may be more difficult as you don't live there. I get a sense of apathy among quite a lot of the residents (this is how this sort of takeover happens) and, as they have a viable and used alternative, it may not bother many of them, much. You may well need more than just a few emails to get the right result.
    Last edited by NeilCr; 07-07-2018 at 11:26 AM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Jul 18, 9:27 PM
    • 59,444 Posts
    • 72,602 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    C-M (or anyone else). Genuine question. The case cited by Ian involved the lady having (it appears) an allocated space which was in her lease taken away from her. There are no such "rights" in the OP's situation or lease. I can see there is a detriment in that they will lose the chance to park in the car park. However, they only really have, at best, a one in two chance now and many are happy - because it is easier for them - to use the on street parking available. It just doesn't seem as strong to me. Is it enough to still cite the 5% loss?
    I see what you mean, however the recipient is a Residents' Association who have listened to some moaning minnie Nimbys, so they probably are not the brightest legal brains.

    The point is to worry them, and to worry the residents, IMHO.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 7th Jul 18, 10:01 PM
    • 1,935 Posts
    • 2,593 Thanks
    NeilCr
    I see what you mean, however the recipient is a Residents' Association who have listened to some moaning minnie Nimbys, so they probably are not the brightest legal brains.

    The point is to worry them, and to worry the residents, IMHO.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    From the other thread those who are now directors of the MC are the "moaning Minnies".

    The MA has already told OP that there is nothing in the lease re parking - if it was just the directors you may well have a point but the MA is on the case, too.

    IMHO the only realistic chance OP has got is to get a groundswell of opinion from the rest of the owners.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 8th Jul 18, 6:57 AM
    • 2,728 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    IMHO the only realistic chance OP has got is to get a groundswell of opinion from the rest of the owners.
    Your missing the point @NeilCr. Each individual leaseholder has an individual contract with the Head Leaseholder which can only be varied if they meet the statutory requirements as laid down.

    The canvassing looks like they are testing for that requirement but they cannot legally vary without meeting the criteria. To do so would remove a valuable right and so cause a loss that is actionable.

    Being able to park on someone else's land (the highway) is not a substitute for any rights in a lease.
    About me: Capricorn. Likes: Tight defences, the tighter the better. Lucidity. Dislikes: Loquaciousness and magic words. WLTM: Someone with the facts, a private income and their own copy of the White Book.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 8th Jul 18, 8:51 AM
    • 1,935 Posts
    • 2,593 Thanks
    NeilCr
    Your missing the point @NeilCr. Each individual leaseholder has an individual contract with the Head Leaseholder which can only be varied if they meet the statutory requirements as laid down.

    The canvassing looks like they are testing for that requirement but they cannot legally vary without meeting the criteria. To do so would remove a valuable right and so cause a loss that is actionable.

    Being able to park on someone else's land (the highway) is not a substitute for any rights in a lease.
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    It's been known. Me missing the point that is!

    I still think there is a lot of difference here between the case you cited and OP's situation. In the Gordon case the lady had a right to a parking space granted to her in the lease that was taken away. Here there is nothing in the lease and the chance of getting a parking space. I get that this is still a detriment but whether that is substantial enough to quote the 5% rent loss or to win at Tribunal I don't know. A few people's view on the housing forum was that they could do it because of the silence of the lease.

    Take your point about the parking on the highway and, yep, could be canvassing. Particularly, given the comment made by the MA about directors considering the situation after the vote. On the other hand they may just be gauging the response to see whether it's worthwhile doing. I definitely don't like the idea - as I said looks like they are banking on it not bothering a lot of the owners and their inertia re the day to day running of the estate

    Back to getting the other owners on board!

    Thanks Ian
    Last edited by NeilCr; 08-07-2018 at 3:38 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Jul 18, 5:33 PM
    • 59,444 Posts
    • 72,602 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Love the way IamEmanresu gets called Ian by posters! He's not called Ian...!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 8th Jul 18, 5:47 PM
    • 1,935 Posts
    • 2,593 Thanks
    NeilCr
    Love the way IamEmanresu gets called Ian by posters! He's not called Ian...!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Oops!

    Mea culpa.



    Plus I am old and my eyes have gone!

    Last edited by NeilCr; 09-07-2018 at 12:36 PM.
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